Unions killing Detroit

[Cancel3]

Asshat, do you think that people who buy the big gas guzzling behemoths are only doing so because of the manpulations of the advertising?

And if you do, do you think those consumers are blameless for their own choices?

 

[Sammy Jankis]

I am not saying that advertising does not work. I am saying it is ultimately the responsibility of the BUYER to make the right choice.

But it is STILL disingenuous for manufacturers to claim they're just reacting to demand, when, in fact, they create it.

Never in the history of the world has so much information been available to car buyers.

If they respond solely to the advertising, then they are fools.

It's still inaccurate for manufacturers to claim they're just reacting to demand, when, in fact, they create it.

No, I don't think the pushers are the biggest part of the problem. I think the consumer is the problem.

I see succumbing to peer pressure, advertising pressure or social pressures, when you KNOW its not a smart choice, is a sign of idiocy and/or weakness.

It's still inaccurate for manufacturers to claim they're just reacting to demand, when, in fact, they create it.

 

[Cancel3]

But it is STILL disingenuous for manufacturers to claim they're just reacting to demand, when, in fact, they create it.

It's still inaccurate for manufacturers to claim they're just reacting to demand, when, in fact, they create it.


It's still inaccurate for manufacturers to claim they're just reacting to demand, when, in fact, they create it.

I guess this debate is finished. If thats all you have I guess we will justhave to wait for a new topic.

If people act like fools and spend like fools, they will pay like fools.

Its up to each individual to make the right choices for them.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

I guess this debate is finished. If thats all you have I guess we will justhave to wait for a new topic.

If people act like fools and spend like fools, they will pay like fools.

Its up to each individual to make the right choices for them.

But we're talking about corporations. And in this case, it's disingenuous to say they're just reacting to demand, when, in fact, they create it.

Just be honest and stop being a retard. Im not talking about outlawing anything.


Your new pearl necklace looks great.

 

[Good Luck]

And spent mega bucks convincing the consumers they wanted the guzzlers.

They spent mega bucks convincing the consumer to buy THEIR gas guzzler. Ford wants you to buy theirs. Dodge wants you to buy theirs. GMC wants you to buy theirs. Toyaota wants you to buy theirs. They compete with each other buy offering what the consumer wants. WE pushed gas guzzlers on them buy continually choosing the larger vehicles of the lines of vehicles offered. They did nothing more than respond to the demands of the consumer.

For proof, you need to do nothing more than look at ads from the mid to late 70s to know it to be true. Back then, in response to our first gas crisis, U.S. auto manufacturers were scrambling to catch up with foreign manufacturers and come out with the best in fuel efficiency. MPG was the watch word and not a single ad did not mention EPA estimate of MPG, even on full size trucks. Back then is when Chevy came out with the Luv pickup, to compete with compact pickup from foreign manufacturers. And they spent mega buck advertising their "fuel efficient" cars back then, to get the consumer to buy theirs instead of a competitor's.

And try not to ignore the fact that Japan and others have also come out with their full size versions of SUVs' aimed directly at US consumers. (They sell very few of them at home.) And they also advertise to get us to buy their product instead of their competitors'.

Your continual blame on auto corporations and oil companies for the energy crisis is assinine to the tenth power. The U.S. consumer, in general, is where the blame belongs. We, as a society, demanded our big trucks. So the auto manufacturers gave us our big trucks. We demanded the huge amounts of fuel needed to power our trucks. And the oil companies delivered.

Now suddenly our spoiled silver-spoon attitudes are coming to bite us in the ass, and mindless "I want mommy to take care of me" twits are screaming how the big bad corporations are screwing us.

The fact is, we screwed ourselves. We became complacent even after the shock of the 70s oil crisis gave us warning of our vulnerability. We forgot our demand for renewable energy sources. We forgot our demand for research into fuel efficiency and alternate fuels for transportation. Had we continued our demands in those areas that was started in the 70s, we would not be where we are at now.

But we did the opposite. Instead of continuing the demand for fuel efficiency, we got spoiled again and demanded bigger "show off" vehicles. A friggin ARMY vehicle, big, ugly and WAY fuel inefficient was modified and became a friggin STATUS SYMBOL.

We acted like spoiled children. And when the natural consequences of our choices come back to haunt us, YOU want to point fingers at some handy bad guy. If it makes you feel good, do what ever you want. But when finger pointing and blame laying becomes reason to support a finger-pointing, blame laying political agenda, then it is going to cause problems. Because blaming the auto industry for providing products according to consumer demand is going to do absolutely nothing to solve the problems our actions and attitudes have laid on our shoulders. Targeting oil companies for special taxation is not going to solve the problem of being dependent on foreign oil.

And shifting blame away from where it belongs will also only guarantee that when this crisis fades (and it will fade) we will go right back to our silver-spoon spoiled ways until we invite the next crisis to crash down on our heads.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

They spent mega bucks convincing the consumer to buy THEIR gas guzzler. Ford wants you to buy theirs. Dodge wants you to buy theirs. GMC wants you to buy theirs. Toyaota wants you to buy theirs. They compete with each other buy offering what the consumer wants. WE pushed gas guzzlers on them buy continually choosing the larger vehicles of the lines of vehicles offered. They did nothing more than respond to the demands of the consumer.

For proof, you need to do nothing more than look at ads from the mid to late 70s to know it to be true. Back then, in response to our first gas crisis, U.S. auto manufacturers were scrambling to catch up with foreign manufacturers and come out with the best in fuel efficiency. MPG was the watch word and not a single ad did not mention EPA estimate of MPG, even on full size trucks. Back then is when Chevy came out with the Luv pickup, to compete with compact pickup from foreign manufacturers. And they spent mega buck advertising their "fuel efficient" cars back then, to get the consumer to buy theirs instead of a competitor's.

And try not to ignore the fact that Japan and others have also come out with their full size versions of SUVs' aimed directly at US consumers. (They sell very few of them at home.) And they also advertise to get us to buy their product instead of their competitors'.

Your continual blame on auto corporations and oil companies for the energy crisis is assinine to the tenth power. The U.S. consumer, in general, is where the blame belongs. We, as a society, demanded our big trucks. So the auto manufacturers gave us our big trucks. We demanded the huge amounts of fuel needed to power our trucks. And the oil companies delivered.

Now suddenly our spoiled silver-spoon attitudes are coming to bite us in the ass, and mindless "I want mommy to take care of me" twits are screaming how the big bad corporations are screwing us.

The fact is, we screwed ourselves. We became complacent even after the shock of the 70s oil crisis gave us warning of our vulnerability. We forgot our demand for renewable energy sources. We forgot our demand for research into fuel efficiency and alternate fuels for transportation. Had we continued our demands in those areas that was started in the 70s, we would not be where we are at now.

But we did the opposite. Instead of continuing the demand for fuel efficiency, we got spoiled again and demanded bigger "show off" vehicles. A friggin ARMY vehicle, big, ugly and WAY fuel inefficient was modified and became a friggin STATUS SYMBOL.

We acted like spoiled children. And when the natural consequences of our choices come back to haunt us, YOU want to point fingers at some handy bad guy. If it makes you feel good, do what ever you want. But when finger pointing and blame laying becomes reason to support a finger-pointing, blame laying political agenda, then it is going to cause problems. Because blaming the auto industry for providing products according to consumer demand is going to do absolutely nothing to solve the problems our actions and attitudes have laid on our shoulders. Targeting oil companies for special taxation is not going to solve the problem of being dependent on foreign oil.

And shifting blame away from where it belongs will also only guarantee that when this crisis fades (and it will fade) we will go right back to our silver-spoon spoiled ways until we invite the next crisis to crash down on our heads.

Bullshit. THey all conspire with their friends in the gas industry keep prices high.

 

[Cancel3]

But we're talking about corporations. And in this case, it's disingenuous to say they're just reacting to demand, when, in fact, they create it.

Just be honest and stop being a retard. Im not talking about outlawing anything.


Your new pearl necklace looks great.

No, you are not talking about outlawing anything. But you are blaming the auto makers for the choices that people make. And I am blaming the people who actually make the choices.

You want the people to be able to do stupid things and then not t ake responsibility for it. I think that is as dangerous an idea as any. And I think it is responsible for many of the ills in our society.

Yes, advertising is designed to convince people to buy their product. But every adult in our society KNOWS this. And yet they still spend an inordinate amount of time and money trying to impress others with their purchases.

If you go and buy a vehicle that is not what you NEED, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Cancel3]

Bullshit. THey all conspire with their friends in the gas industry keep prices high.

Asshat, your entire premise requires that the consumer be mindless idiots blindly following what they are told to do.

If that is the case then we are fucked anyway, and there is no point arguing.


I see the consumer as either educated and informed or as someone who ignores the information available and buys based on stupid reasons. In either case it is the consumer who makes the decision to buy.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

No, you are not talking about outlawing anything. But you are blaming the auto makers for the choices that people make.

Nope. Im blaming them for the content of their own advertising.

And I am blaming the people who actually make the choices.

Corporations chose to run ads for gas guzzlers.

You want the people to be able to do stupid things and then not t ake responsibility for it. I think that is as dangerous an idea as any. And I think it is responsible for many of the ills in our society.

You want to deny the effect of advertising and hold corporations blameless for everything.

Yes, advertising is designed to convince people to buy their product. But every adult in our society KNOWS this. And yet they still spend an inordinate amount of time and money trying to impress others with their purchases.

If you go and buy a vehicle that is not what you NEED, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

But advertising defines what is impressive.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Look how fascists get all worked up about basic truths.

 

[Cancel3]

Look how fascists get all worked up about basic truths.

Look how the paranoid assumes people are sheep and treats them as victims when they make their own choices.

Asshat, I have never said that advertising has no effect. But I have said that the individual is responsible for his choices.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Look how the paranoid assumes people are sheep and treats them as victims when they make their own choices.

Asshat, I have never said that advertising has no effect. But I have said that the individual is responsible for his choices.

But corporations are not merely reacting to demand as they claim. They create it. This is true. Accept it, then get over it.

 

[Cancel3]

When you can only repeat the same "the corporations manipulated the people" bullshit over and over, your agument is dead.

And when you think that insults and name-calling make up for lack of facts, its obvious you have no points to make.



Yep, you lost again to the fascists.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

When you can only repeat the same "the corporations manipulated the people" bullshit over and over, your agument is dead.

And when you think that insults and name-calling make up for lack of facts, its obvious you have no points to make.



Yep, you lost again to the fascists.

The truth doesn't change with each post. Your apparent inability to accept the truth is the reason for the repetition.

It's just a lie for corprations to claim they're merely reactive.

 

[Epicurus]

"Unions create a middle class by allowing you and me to ask for the wages and the benefits we need to become or remain middle class..

...by the 1920s things looked a lot like they do today: the robber barons were in charge, and the situation for working people was bleak. The rich were incredibly rich, and the few middle-class workers were deeply in debt. The labor movement appeared virtually dead.

It took the Republican Great Depression to wake people up. It took Franklin D. Roosevelt to speak the truth. If a politician said the same things today that Roosevelt did in the 1930s - openly accusing big business of being anti-American and antiworker - he'd be accused of socialism and communism. Very few national figures have the courage to speak out today the way FDR did back then.

Roosevelt provided courageous leadership. In his first term, he had sent to Congress the National Industrial Recovery Act, which set standards for wages and working hours and established the right of laborers to organize. This set the stage for labor groups to bargain for wages and conditions. Thanks in large part to FDR's work on behalf of labor, in the 25 years after World War II the real incomes of the middle class doubled.

Today America is regressing. Middle-class income has stopped growing. The net worth of those who earn less than $150,000 per year (which includes everybody from the working poor to the highest end of the most well-off of the middle class) is down by 0.6 percent.

The problem isn't the economy. Corporations are making more money than ever. The real income of people whose net worth exceeds $100 million is doubling.

What's happening is simple: the rich are getting richer and the entire spectrum of the middle class is disappearing.

We can easily trace this decline to Reagan's first public declaration of war on the middle class when he went after the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) in 1981. He broke the back of the air-traffic controllers' union and began the practice of using the Department of Labor - traditionally the ally of workers - against organized labor and working people.

Reagan liked to say he was against "big government." What he really meant was that he was against Roosevelt's New Deal. He was against Social Security, the minimum wage, free college education (he ended that in California as its governor), and programs like the Works Progress Administration. He believed in the discredited concept of "trickle-down" economics - the theory that if you create a corporatocracy, the rich will nobly spend some of their money to help the rest of us.

The American people don't need handouts. Our workers just want to be paid a living wage for a fair day's work. We can't count on the corporatocracy to give us what we earn, so we need a strong labor movement to give us the power to negotiate our wages and benefits."
http://www.truthout.org/article/thom-hartmann-needed-workplace-democracy

3 generations of my family fought for the unionization of the coal mines in W.Va and the steelmills in N.E. Ohio. Thru unionization my family was able to work their way into the middle class and out of the economic slavery that corporatists like Toppie would enslave in us again.

Labor is like lettuce, the more you have the cheaper it is. If American workers can't protect themselves and their jobs and families the next step is back into slavery.

CrashK is such a tool. It's like I get it. You love communism. So move.

 

[Cancel3]

But corporations are not merely reacting to demand as they claim. They create it. This is true. Accept it, then get over it.

Ok, there are plenty of thingsto blame.

1. Consumers
2. Advertising campaigns
3. TVs for carrying the ads
4. Hollywood for perpetuating the "Look at me" attitudes
5. Rich people for having such cool stuff
6. Oil companies for selling us cheap fuel
7. The internet for allowing us to see more ads and want more stuff
8. Capitalism for telling us we can earn more money
9. Banks for loaning money on gas guzzlers
10. The federal gov't for building roads that support our behemoth vehicles




It could go on and on and on. But the PRIMARY responsibility for what is bought is with the consumer.

You can continue with the "the corporations are to blame too!" cries all you want. But that does not change the FACT that the consumer makes a CHOICE of what to buy.

 

[Cancel3]

The truth doesn't change with each post. Your apparent inability to accept the truth is the reason for the repetition.

It's just a lie for corprations to claim they're merely reactive.

I have NEVER said that they had no hand in it. You keep saying that I have.

But the PRIMARY responibility lies with the consumer.

Your denying that is simply denying the truth in an effort to blame the corporations.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

I have NEVER said that they had no hand in it. You keep saying that I have.

This whole discussion started from corporations claiming to be purely reactive. That is demonstrably false.

 

[Cancel3]

This whole discussion started from corporations claiming to be purely reactive. That is demonstrably false.

If it is "demonstrably false", then please offer up some evidence other than your pitiful claims.

The topic came up because someone said that the Big Three built what people wanted. They didn't say it was the ONLY reason.


But look at the sales and the vehicle models. Whenever one particular type of vehicle has a good year of sales, the FOLLOWING year there will be MORE models like it offered by numerous manufacturers.

When the Hummer's sales went up, the rest of the automakers started producing BIGGER vehicles.

When the Yukon XL outsold the standard YUKON, other manufacturers made their vehicles larger.



Those are evidence of REACTION to the public's buying certain vehicles.

To deny this only makes you look more foolish.

 

[Good Luck]

Nobody is a "victim" in this. Auto manufacturers did not form some kind of conspiracy to sell large trucks. They offered a line of "SUVs" and the consumers purchased more of the larger ones than the smaller ones. So the next year they made them a bit bigger, and stil the larger vehicles sold more than the smaller.

Advertising was not to make people want big trucks, it was to make people want THEIR big trucks, or THEIR mid size cars, or THEIR sport cars, etc. etc. etc. Yes there are all the trucks, but there are also Saturn sedans, Dodge Neon compacts, Ford Escorts, etc. All kinds of cars have continued to be offered, including fuel efficient compacts.

The consumer saw ALL those ads and large numbers chose the larger vehicles. Some did it because they thought it was "cool". Some did it because their neighbor did it. Some actually had a need for a full size truck. Some thought it would be better in winter to have a full size 4WD. (Then drove them like idiots, ass if 4wd is some kind of magic) There were numerous reasons for choosing a big truck over mid size cars or compacts. None of them were because the car manufacturers told them to want a big truck.

Maybe those brain dead enough to buy into the "it's all the corporations' faults" mentality are also brain dead enough to be mindlessly manipulated into making purchases they knew were wrong. But most U.S. citizens were aware of what they were doing and why - even if the "why" was kinda lame.