Unions killing Detroit

Mottleydude said:
Oh that's utter bullshit to blame that on liberals. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see the fuel crises coming. Japanese automakers are hurting now too cause they tooled up to make a lot of small trucks and SUV's but they kept the marketing up for their dependable fuel efficient sedans and coupes and now they have a market edge. How the hell does it become liberal to NOT want to bail out the automakers?

Last I saw a huge number of those gas guzzling trucks and SUV's had "W04" bumper stickers on them cause a lot of red neck conservatives with pencil dicks and an inferiority complex, that want these big gas guzzlers, couldn't accept the reality of increased demand for oil and thus increased cost of fuel. It's like conservatives want to hide their head in the sand, as they so often do, because they believe the 11th ammendment is "Though shalt have cheap gas".

So don't lay this on liberals. If any political entity is responsible for this situation it's conservatives and their inability to deal with reality. You want to drive a big truck or SUV cause you have a small penis, fine, but don't cry to me about the cost of gas. Let's not forget that it's conservatives who are crying for the corporate welfare, not liberals.
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I wasn't blaming liberalism for the crisis you ignorant, braindead, partisan lemming. I was and am heaping scorn on the idea - coming from liberals - that it is the fault of the auto companies for building gas guzzlers. They built us gas guzzlers because that is what we wanted. As you point out, even Japanese automakers were responding to the U.S. demand for oversize "SUV's" - to their current detriment. Proof positive that auto makers give the consumer what they wanted.

And I have seen just as many oversize SUVs with Kerry stickers on them as Bush stickers. So don't EVEN try to imply it is a conservative problem either. We, as a society, have been spoiled by (relatively) inexpensive fuel prices, just as we were spoiled in the early 70s. And we, as a society, liberal and conservative alike, are to blame for the current crisis.

And before you make corporate welfare a republican issue, try looking at who has gotten what in the last 40 years, and under what kind of administration. Congress (who writes these spending bills) has been controlled by republicans only 12 of the last 40 years. When it comes to preferential treatment and corporate welfare, both parties have been giving the farm away to corporations.

And let's not even approach the idea that removing tax breaks on big oil is somehow going to HELP with the pump price of gasoline. As is typical of the way current liberals think, the answer to a crisis is to find someone (other than ourselves, of course) to blame, and then support policy to "punish" those we have chosen to point the finger at. Oil companies, like auto companies, are giving the U.S. consumer what they asked for - HUGE quantities of gasoline. It is not their fault they had to go to less-than-friendly countries to secure the oil needed to give us (the U.S. consuming public) what we demand.

Also of note, when it comes to who is in whose pockets, the wind power industry has been asking for a tax credit bill to be extended to encourage people and businesses to install wind generators. Despite a democratic majority in both houses of congress, that bill for some reason, cannot get passed. Funny, huh? The federal government has also considered - and voted down - bills giving additional federal tax credits to people or businesses who invest in solar power. But somehow it is only the republicans who favor big oil? Again, give it a rest. Democrats are just as guilty when it comes to taking action on what they give lip service to. In the end they are no better in taking action to move our economy away from foreign oil dependency.

But the original point was that blaming auto manufacturers for making over sized trucks is ridiculous. They simply sold what the consumer demanded.
 
Good Luck said:
I wasn't blaming liberalism for the crisis you ignorant, braindead, partisan lemming. I was and am heaping scorn on the idea - coming from liberals - that it is the fault of the auto companies for building gas guzzlers. They built us gas guzzlers because that is what we wanted. As you point out, even Japanese automakers were responding to the U.S. demand for oversize "SUV's" - to their current detriment. Proof positive that auto makers give the consumer what they wanted.

And I have seen just as many oversize SUVs with Kerry stickers on them as Bush stickers. So don't EVEN try to imply it is a conservative problem either. We, as a society, have been spoiled by (relatively) inexpensive fuel prices, just as we were spoiled in the early 70s. And we, as a society, liberal and conservative alike, are to blame for the current crisis.

And before you make corporate welfare a republican issue, try looking at who has gotten what in the last 40 years, and under what kind of administration. Congress (who writes these spending bills) has been controlled by republicans only 12 of the last 40 years. When it comes to preferential treatment and corporate welfare, both parties have been giving the farm away to corporations.

And let's not even approach the idea that removing tax breaks on big oil is somehow going to HELP with the pump price of gasoline. As is typical of the way current liberals think, the answer to a crisis is to find someone (other than ourselves, of course) to blame, and then support policy to "punish" those we have chosen to point the finger at. Oil companies, like auto companies, are giving the U.S. consumer what they asked for - HUGE quantities of gasoline. It is not their fault they had to go to less-than-friendly countries to secure the oil needed to give us (the U.S. consuming public) what we demand.

Also of note, when it comes to who is in whose pockets, the wind power industry has been asking for a tax credit bill to be extended to encourage people and businesses to install wind generators. Despite a democratic majority in both houses of congress, that bill for some reason, cannot get passed. Funny, huh? The federal government has also considered - and voted down - bills giving additional federal tax credits to people or businesses who invest in solar power. But somehow it is only the republicans who favor big oil? Again, give it a rest. Democrats are just as guilty when it comes to taking action on what they give lip service to. In the end they are no better in taking action to move our economy away from foreign oil dependency.

But the original point was that blaming auto manufacturers for making over sized trucks is ridiculous. They simply sold what the consumer demanded.
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And spent mega bucks convincing the consumers they wanted the guzzlers.
 
White Stripes - The Big Three Killed My Baby


the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobodys coming home again

their ideas make me wanna spit
a hundred dollars goes down the pit
thirty-thousand wheels a rollin
and my stick shift hands are swollen
everything involved is shady
the big three killed my baby yeah yeah yeah

the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobodys comin home again

why dont cha take the day off and try to repair
a billion others don't seem to care
better ideas are stuck in the mud
the motor's runnin on tucker's blood
dont let 'em tell you the future's electric
cuz gasoline not measured in metric
thirty-thousand wheels a spinnin
and oil company faces are grinnin
and now my hand are turnin red
and i found out my baby is dead yeah yeah yeah

the big three killed my baby
no money in my hand again
the big three killed my baby
nobody's comin home again

well i've said it now
nothings changed
people are burnin for pocket change
and creative minds are lazy
and the big three killed my baby yeah yeah yeah
and my baby's my common sense
so dont feed me planned obsolescence
and my baby's my common sense

yeah im about to have another blow up
 
As GoodLuck said, the big three gave us what we wanted.

Look at Toyota's and Nissan's trucks. Look at the development of those truck since the late 70s.

What did they do? They built them bigger and more powerful.

The same thing they did with their SUVs.



Personally, I like having a bigger vehicle and am willing to spend more on gasoline to have it. I have a Yukon and a Jeep Wrangler. Neither is particularly fuel efficient. But when I travel I prefer the Yukon to my wife's Kia.
 
Solitary said:
As GoodLuck said, the big three gave us what we wanted.
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It is foolish to discount the millions spent in advertising telling us what we should want. They have been cooperating with the gas to people to keep prices high, creating this idiotic demand for POWER so one can commute to work.

Think deeper and be honest.
 
AssHatZombie said:
It is foolish to discount the millions spent in advertising telling us what we should want. They have been cooperating with the gas to people to keep prices high, creating this idiotic demand for POWER so one can commute to work.

Think deeper and be honest.
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To be honest, I have several things that I look for and consider when buying a vehicle.

I look at what I want the vehicle for, and what I need from the vehicle.

I look at safety factors and reports of damages in accident.

I look at reliability.

I look at availability. (since I always buy used cars, this is a factor unless I can wait until I find what I want - like I did with my Jeep)

And I look at cost factors. Fuel efficiency is only one of those factors. Since I live about 3 miles passed Nowhere, repairs costs for some cars is much higher than for others. I can get work done on a GMC easily. But a Volvo takes a bit more.



I don't buy based on advertising gimmicks. If you ask me what my favorite car of all time has been, it would be an old air-cooled Beetle. (at least of those in my price range)

I am not denying the effectiveness of advertising. But if we as a society bought solely based on what the Big Three told us, then we are a society of fools and we deserve our fate.
 
Solitary said:
To be honest, I have several things that I look for and consider when buying a vehicle.

I look at what I want the vehicle for, and what I need from the vehicle.

I look at safety factors and reports of damages in accident.

I look at reliability.

I look at availability. (since I always buy used cars, this is a factor unless I can wait until I find what I want - like I did with my Jeep)

And I look at cost factors. Fuel efficiency is only one of those factors. Since I live about 3 miles passed Nowhere, repairs costs for some cars is much higher than for others. I can get work done on a GMC easily. But a Volvo takes a bit more.



I don't buy based on advertising gimmicks. If you ask me what my favorite car of all time has been, it would be an old air-cooled Beetle. (at least of those in my price range)

I am not denying the effectiveness of advertising. But if we as a society bought solely based on what the Big Three told us, then we are a society of fools and we deserve our fate.
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I disagree. People should be educated to do what's good for them. Not manipulated and then cast aside as if the manipulation wasn't occuring. Is this your attitude towards alcoholics and those with drug problems, once they realize they have a problem they should be cast aside instead of helped?
 
AssHatZombie said:
I disagree. People should be educated to do what's good for them. Not manipulated and then cast aside as if the manipulation wasn't occuring. Is this your attitude towards alcoholics and those with drug problems, once they realize they have a problem they should be cast aside instead of helped?
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Not at all. And its a big stretch to even try to make the point that I say we should cast people aside.

But an alcoholic or drug addict that doesn't want help cannot BE helped. If they recognize their problem I want them to be able to get all the help they need.

If car buyers follow the advice of commercials, then they deserve what they get. If they recognize that they are being manipulated, then they will shop wisely. Government intervention is not necessary.
 
Solitary said:
Not at all. And its a big stretch to even try to make the point that I say we should cast people aside.
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No it's not. You have a blame the victim mentality and it's sickening.
But an alcoholic or drug addict that doesn't want help cannot BE helped. If they recognize their problem I want them to be able to get all the help they need.
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Pushers are still part of the problem.
If car buyers follow the advice of commercials, then they deserve what they get. If they recognize that they are being manipulated, then they will shop wisely. Government intervention is not necessary.
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Nobody was discussing intervention. But saying, "we just built the trucks people wanted" is disingenuous considering the billions they used to create that desire.
 
AssHatZombie said:
No it's not. You have a blame the victim mentality and it's sickening.

Pushers are still part of the problem.


Nobody was discussing intervention. But saying, "we just built the trucks people wanted" is disingenuous considering the billions they used to create that desire.
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You WANT me to have a "blame the victim mentality", that way its easier to condemn me. I believe that individuals have choices to make and they should be responsible for those choice.

Pushers are a problem? That is only a serious issue if you think that the people that buy from them are idiots. Do you honestly believe that people who are buying drugs from pushers are unaware of the dangers of the drugs? Do you think that they have no clue what the consequences could be?

No, people are smarter than that if they WANT to be. People who buy certain vehicles just to impress other people are making choices based on their own ignorance and insecurities. I disagree with they reason for buy those cars, but I will fight for their freedom to do so.

Do you honestly think that the people who bought Hummers and big SUVs were unaware that they were gas guzzling behemoths? Do you think they were unaware that there are better choices?

That is the difference between you and me, I respect people's freedom to make choices.
 
AssHatZombie said:
Another pearl necklace for Solitary. He's fancy.
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You think you put a pearl necklace on me because I do not blame advertising for people's choices?

There are plenty of ads for fuel efficient cars too. There are plenty of ads for all sorts of alternatives.

I simply believe that if people make choices based on their need to look a certain way or to impress people, they should live with the consequences of those choices.



You are far to quick to claim victory. I see nothing in your posts that overcomes my points at all. Just more of the same nonsense.

Although its good to see that you have reined in your anal fetish.
 
Solitary said:
You WANT me to have a "blame the victim mentality", that way its easier to condemn me. I believe that individuals have choices to make and they should be responsible for those choice.
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But advertising works. It's disingenuous for manufacturers to claim they're just reacting to demand when that demand is also manufactured by them.
Pushers are a problem? That is only a serious issue if you think that the people that buy from them are idiots. Do you honestly believe that people who are buying drugs from pushers are unaware of the dangers of the drugs? Do you think that they have no clue what the consequences could be?
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Do you honestly believe pushers are blameless?
No, people are smarter than that if they WANT to be. People who buy certain vehicles just to impress other people are making choices based on their own ignorance and insecurities. I disagree with they reason for buy those cars, but I will fight for their freedom to do so.
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Advertising still has an effect. What wer'e talking about here is the dishonesty of pretending advertising does not create demand. It does. That's why it's such a huge industry.
Do you honestly think that the people who bought Hummers and big SUVs were unaware that they were gas guzzling behemoths? Do you think they were unaware that there are better choices?

That is the difference between you and me, I respect people's freedom to make choices.
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No, the real difference is you will bend over all the way to justify the idiotic and dishonest rationalizations of corporations.
 
I am not saying that advertising does not work. I am saying it is ultimately the responsibility of the BUYER to make the right choice.

Never in the history of the world has so much information been available to car buyers.

If they respond solely to the advertising, then they are fools.



No, I don't think the pushers are the biggest part of the problem. I think the consumer is the problem.

I see succumbing to peer pressure, advertising pressure or social pressures, when you KNOW its not a smart choice, is a sign of idiocy and/or weakness.
 
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