So who was right on the Iraq War? Liberals vs. Conservatives.

[SmarterthanYou]

Sorry, I missed it again. Could you bold the part where you provide an example of what you claim?

Hillary was the most qualified on paper -- if you were to train someone to take a job as the Commander-In-Chief, in terms of experience and knowledge, she would pass. What she lacks are qualities such as political backbone and leadership.

By contrast, Trump had zero leadership skills except bullying and mocking his competitors. He was a shit businessman, and continues to bleed a fortune that he doesn't rightly possess, doesn't understand foreign policy, shits on diplomacy, has no intellectual curiosity and brags that he's the same now as he was at the age of 7. I could go on. Should I?

maybe you should. it's obvious you're completely ignoring the dregs that is hillary, even though I pointed it out to you TWICE, but hey, I get it. You can't accept the embarrassment that you supported a person that was equally as bad, if not more so, than trump.

 

[Bill]

Obama turned the Iraq War from a farce into a blown tragedy, when will you ever acknowledge that fact?

Sent from my Lenovo K8 Note using Tapatalk

Blame is easy........ It is very easy to say had the US stayed everything would be honkydory...

Had Obama kept the troops there the same ppl would be bitching & moaning about this or that-because he didn't leave..

We should not have been there in the first place........ Staying to try & fix it would only make the matter worse..

 

[anatta]

Blame is easy........ It is very easy to say had the US stayed everything would be honkydory...

Had Obama kept the troops there the same ppl would be bitching & moaning about this or that-because he didn't leave..

We should not have been there in the first place........ Staying to try & fix it would only make the matter worse..

Maliki was determined to decimate the Sunni office corps (many became AQI).
I don't think that army would ever be cohesive with the sectarianism driven by Maliki.

Obama gets the blame for not strafing the ISIS convoys streaming across open desert from Syria to the Iraqi cities. Mosul, etc.

By the time they came into contact wit the Iraqi army, the Iraqi deserted their tanks an artillery and even their uniforms

Factors behind the precipitate collapse of Iraq's army 13 June 2014
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27838435

 

[Bill]

As I said, blaming him is easy & hindsight is always 20/20....... Had the US stayed things would have happened just the same~shit happens, ppl blame..

 

[Getin the ring]

Incorrect. Obama followed the exit timetable set by Bush, dependent on the SOFA which Iraq wouldn't sign. Obama had two choices: Allow soldiers to be subject Iraq's criminal court, or invade the nation again so that he could keep soldiers in place. Even then, the Iraq government (under Al-Maliki) was effectively ruled out of Tehran, and they didn't want American troops in Iraq.

blaming Bush for Obamas bad decisions is weak, very weak.
if there was something Obama and his Generals found to be a bad idea about The plan Bush layed out then he should have changed the plan. that's what leaders do.

Like Trump with Obamacare, the most dim witted idea ever presented as policy in certainly my time, is being changed, maybe even dismantled, you don't get any of this leadership stuff huh?

 

[Teflon Don]

I can tell you as a first hand witness, that virtually every conservative on jpp.com supported the Iraq War Disaster, and defended it for years long after it became apparent to rational people that it was a historic clusterfuck of the first order.

I can count on one hand the number of conservatives who have publically admitted they were wrong, and jpp.com liberals were right.

Some of the original Iraq War supporters are now - belatedly - claiming to have been against the war and against Bush at the time. Will wonders never cease!

I wasn’t against the war. I just felt we should have flattened them. I also said that Congress should have declared war as is their constitutional duty

 

[cancel2 2022]

Blame is easy........ It is very easy to say had the US stayed everything would be honkydory...

Had Obama kept the troops there the same ppl would be bitching & moaning about this or that-because he didn't leave..

We should not have been there in the first place........ Staying to try & fix it would only make the matter worse..

Blame is certainly easy, it's something you've become very adept at lately. I was never a supporter of that war but Obama without a shadow of doubt made the situation worse. How anybody can deny that is beyond me.

Sent from my Lenovo K8 Note using Tapatalk

 

[cawacko]

I would say it's extremely difficult to sell liberalism as a governing philosophy, because it requires setting a high level of moral and ethical behavior and a large degree of selflessness. It requires that people in Iraq be seen as equal to people in America. It requires distancing yourself from nations with glaring human rights abuses, such as Saudi Arabia, rather than siding with Saudi Arabia because they have oil and are the dominant Islamic side in regional holy war. It also requires talking tough to friends like Israel, that pretend to be bastions of Western democracy, even though they are illegal occupiers, and engage in a systematic and deliberate slaughtering of Palestinians under the pretense of national security (they called it 'mowing the grass'), while sabotaging any chance at peace.

Liberals often side with moderates (the least bad choice) over a rancid turn like Trump, or against moderates when a better moderate emerges. They are no liberal champions within the Democratic party, or if there are, I am unaware of them.

To tie this back to your OP when you say liberals vs conservatives how many people would you say are real liberals? I mean it's easy for any of us to sit on a message board and claim ideological purity but how many of us are like that in the real world? I don't know how old you are but I'm 45 and I'm old to have seen multiple Presidents and have seen partisans on both sides support one thing when their side did it and be against the exact same thing when the other side did it. (this is neither here nor there but I understand why people become disillusioned with politicians and politics.) So I've seen a lot of hypocrisy, myself included, from all political spectrums.

During the Bush II year's you heard a number of people on the right saying Bush wasn't a true conservative. And they were correct. But it's also like saying someone isn't a true liberal. Do those people really exist that hold any form of power?

 

[Bill]

Blame is certainly easy, it's something you've become very adept at lately. I was never a supporter of that war but Obama without a shadow of doubt made the situation worse. How anybody can deny that is beyond me.

Sent from my Lenovo K8 Note using Tapatalk

Again, since we don't know what would have happened if he DIDN'T FOLLOW THE BUSH PLAN, it is speculation, your own........

Obama, bush & even the dirty can only do their best w/ the hand they been dealt.. Sometimes, & in cases like these lots of times there are no real good options..

 

[cawacko]

I would say it's extremely difficult to sell liberalism as a governing philosophy, because it requires setting a high level of moral and ethical behavior and a large degree of selflessness. It requires that people in Iraq be seen as equal to people in America. It requires distancing yourself from nations with glaring human rights abuses, such as Saudi Arabia, rather than siding with Saudi Arabia because they have oil and are the dominant Islamic side in regional holy war. It also requires talking tough to friends like Israel, that pretend to be bastions of Western democracy, even though they are illegal occupiers, and engage in a systematic and deliberate slaughtering of Palestinians under the pretense of national security (they called it 'mowing the grass'), while sabotaging any chance at peace.

Liberals often side with moderates (the least bad choice) over a rancid turn like Trump, or against moderates when a better moderate emerges. They are no liberal champions within the Democratic party, or if there are, I am unaware of them.

I will disagree with a prior comment you made that liberalism isn't about economics. I believe it very much is. I'd offer Bernie Sanders campaign as an example where income inequality was his central theme. Now it's possible you say no one holding elected office today is a liberal but the reality is Republicans and Democrats both love spending tax payers money; what they fight over is how and where it should be spent.

 

[Airstrip One]

Lets also remember that liberals constitute only a sliver of the Democratic base. The party was built from the 1990s onward as a centrist party, sometimes even center-right.

What is it right-of-centre on?

 

[cancel2 2022]

Again, since we don't know what would have happened if he DIDN'T FOLLOW THE BUSH PLAN, it is speculation, your own........

Obama, bush & even the dirty can only do their best w/ the hand they been dealt.. Sometimes, & in cases like these lots of times there are no real good options..

Ok, if that helps you sleep at night then go with that.

Sent from my Lenovo K8 Note using Tapatalk

 

[Bill]

Ok, if that helps you sleep at night then go with that.

Sent from my Lenovo K8 Note using Tapatalk

I sleep fine almost every night...... I don't stay up stressing over things I can't change........ I don't think you do either..

 

[christiefan915]

Cypress used this board as an example earlier. There were multiple liberals on this board against the Iraq War. Yet these same folks fully backed Hillary. All of them.

Are you a single-issue voter?

 

[christiefan915]

You and other anti Iraq War folks still voted for President for a person who voted for the Iraq War. How can your party nominate someone who backed something so catastrophically wrong? And did her time as S.O.S. make it look like she really learned anything from that vote?

Why do you expect liberals to be single-issue voters? I never expected the family values crowd to vote for trump either, knowing what a lying phony he is. At one time pro-Iraq war and pro-choice but cons don't question his flip-flops.

 

[christiefan915]

At the end of the day Hillary has always been more hawkish and I think she voted to support the war because 1) it was for the most part popular with the people at the time and 2) she knew she wanted to run for President and she didn't want to vote against it and have the war go well and have to be on the campaign trail answering questions about why she supported leaving Saddam in charge.

Once it was clear the war wasn't going well she knew she was f'd among her liberal base.

Isn't that why the majority voted for the war?

 

[christiefan915]

Well there's also things said about Saddam by her husband while he was in office so she was consistent with his rhetoric. Hillary has always been hawkish unless you'd like to argue otherwise.

The bottom line is that Bill never turned talk into action. That's all on bush and his toadies.

 

[cawacko]

Are you a single-issue voter?

No, but I'm speaking within context of the OP. He's starting a thread on a war that started 14 years ago. So if he's bragging about it today and glorifying the people who were against it I don't think it out of line to ask why those same people voted for someone who supported that war.

 

[christiefan915]

No, but I'm speaking within context of the OP. He's starting a thread on a war that started 14 years ago. So if he's bragging about it today and glorifying the people who were against it I don't think it out of line to ask why those same people voted for someone who supported that war.

Because we agreed with her platform in 2016, simple.

 

[cawacko]

Why do you expect liberals to be single-issue voters? I never expected the family values crowd to vote for trump either, knowing what a lying phony he is. At one time pro-Iraq war and pro-choice but cons don't question his flip-flops.

What did Hillary do as S.O.S. that made you feel she was any less hawkish than when she made the Iraq vote?