Anyone still against the death penalty?

Yurtsie loves death!

In theory, the death penalty saves lives by staying the hand of would-be killers. The idea is simple cost-benefit analysis: If a man tempted by homicide knew that he would face death if caught, he would reconsider.

But that's not the real world. The South executes far more convicted murderers than any other region yet has a homicide rate far above the national average. Texas' murder rate is slightly above average, despite the state's peerless deployment of the death penalty. If capital punishment were an effective deterrent to homicide, shouldn't we expect the opposite result? What's going on here?

Human nature, mostly. Murder is often a crime of passion, which by definition excludes the faculties of reason. The jealous husband who walks in on his wife and another man is in no position to deliberate rationally on the consequences of killing his rival. The convenience store robber who chooses in a split-second to shoot the clerk has not pondered the potential outcomes of pulling the trigger.

People overtaken by rage, panic or drunkenness should be brought to justice, of course, but they are hardly paragons of pure reason, and it's unreasonable to assert that they consider the possibility of a death sentence when committing their crimes.

Too distant a threat
Even premeditated killers don't expect to be executed. And for good reason. Statistics show that a homicidal gangster is far more likely to die at the hands of his fellow thugs than the hands of the state. As economist and Freakonomics author Steven Levitt writes, "No rational criminal should be deterred by the death penalty, since the punishment is too distant and too unlikely to merit much attention."

Well, then, just speed up the appeals process, some say. But the appeals process has already been shortened as much as possible without being reckless. This at the same time that a steady stream of DNA exonerations have raised important questions about investigative tactics once thought to be foolproof.

Is it worth the risk of killing innocent people on the unproven theory that it would result in fewer innocents dying via homicide?

This year, this newspaper reversed its longstanding support of the death penalty because the process is deeply flawed and irreversible. Among the moral, legal and practical reasons for our stance is the absence of hard evidence that capital punishment prevents murder.

Some recent studies purport to show that executions actually deter murders. These studies have been analyzed by others and found to be fatally flawed – "fraught with numerous technical and conceptual errors," as Columbia Law professor and statistics expert Jeffrey Fagan testified to Congress. One Pepperdine study touted last month on the Wall Street Journal op-ed pages found that a national decline in the murder rate correlated with executions. But that study links two broad sets of numbers and leaps to a simple conclusion.

Inconclusive at best
The devil really is in the lack of details. The national murder rate has been declining for a decade and a half – in states with and without the death penalty. But the drop has been faster in states that reject capital punishment. At best, evidence for a deterrent effect is inconclusive, and shouldn't officials be able to prove that the taking of one life will undoubtedly save others? They simply have not met that burden of proof, and it's difficult to see how they could.

The only murders the death penalty unarguably deters are those that might have been committed by the executed. But we shouldn't punish inmates for what they might do. Besides, society has an effective and bloodless means of protecting itself from those who have proved themselves willing to murder. It's called life without benefit of parole. In a previous editorial, we called this "death by prison."

Granting the state the power of life and death over its citizens requires something far more solid and certain than mere guesswork.

• Nine of the 10 states with the highest murder rates in the country have the death penalty.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...rence_1202edi.ART.State.Edition1.36bbe2f.html
 
it doesn't deter crime? lmao...

it costs more because the current system is fucked, that is not a reason to abolish the death penalty...some education districts are inept at costs and costs us more money that necessary, yet you wouldn't argue that we should abolish the entire education system

i say to them, it is a fucking tragedy and i can never understand their unique loss

what do you say to the father who lived in the OP? ooops, tough luck, your wife and two daughters got raped, but i care more about the rapists than your wife and daughter....

Look at this. This is the post of a male supremacist, but very few will notice this. I might be the only one.

The OP he refers to tells of the surviving man's two daughters and wife being murdered in a pretty horrific manner. The younger daughter and the wife were also raped. But then the daughters were tied to a bed and doused with gasoline and left to die.

What does the male supremacist focus on?

The rape. Notice he doesn't even mention the murders.

This is because the male supremacist views women as property. And their property was violated by another male.

And that is the crime.
 
Look at this. This is the post of a male supremacist, but very few will notice this. I might be the only one.

The OP he refers to tells of the surviving man's two daughters and wife being murdered in a pretty horrific manner. The younger daughter and the wife were also raped. But then the daughters were tied to a bed and doused with gasoline and left to die.

What does the male supremacist focus on?

The rape. Notice he doesn't even mention the murders.

This is because the male supremacist views women as property. And their property was violated by another male.

And that is the crime.

Yurtsie is not a male supremacist, he wears panties.
 
it doesn't deter crime? lmao...

What's funny? Do you have solid support for the deterrent effect of the death penalty? At best studies are inconclusive (and I'm being quite charitable here). If you want to argue that we should kill people because it will deter others from doing bad things it seems to me that the link between killing people and deterring bad things should be rock fucking solid. I mean, you're killing people.

it costs more because the current system is fucked, that is not a reason to abolish the death penalty...some education districts are inept at costs and costs us more money that necessary, yet you wouldn't argue that we should abolish the entire education system

(1) Due process is a bitch. (2) Given the number of people exonerated from death row as a result of the appellate process the costs are warranted. (3) No, we don't say we should abolish the education system because there is no cost effective viable alternative that achieves the societal goals of education whereas we have life sentences as a viable alternative to the death penalty that achieve the same societal goals as the death penalty.

i say to them, it is a fucking tragedy and i can never understand their unique loss

I'd drop the "fucking" part out of that but otherwise it looks good.


what do you say to the father who lived in the OP? ooops, tough luck, your wife and two daughters got raped, but i care more about the rapists than your wife and daughter....


I wouldn't recommend that approach.
 
Yurtsie has difficulty debating. He prefers to use his time-honored tactics of accusing his opponets of being 'trolls' and 'hacks'. That way he doesn't have to form complete sentences.

Like many Americans, I have long had an uneasy sense of the death penalty in this country. In order to fully support it, you have to have complete faith in our justice system and in the value of deterrence. Recently the latter has been strongly challenged: A new study shows that 88% of the country's top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide. The study was published earlier this week in Northwestern University School of Law's Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology authored by Professor Michael Radelet, Chair of the Department of Sociology at the University of Colorado-Boulder, and Traci Lacock, an attorney and Sociology grad student in Boulder.

"Do Executions Lower Homicide Rates? The Views of Leading Criminologists," relied on questionnaires completed by the most pre-eminent criminologists in the country. Fully 75% of them agree that "debates about the death penalty distract Congress and state legislatures from focusing on real solutions to crime problems." Respondents were not asked for their personal opinions about the wisdom of the death penalty, but instead to answer the questions only on the basis of their understanding of the empirical research.

Given this latest study, it is difficult for me to see any reason for our nation to maintain a policy of executing criminals. Several men and women have been released from prison -- and death row -- over the past decade. Some were just days away from execution. But upon review of DNA and other evidence, they were determined to be innocent. If such a determination had not been made, innocent Americans would have been put to death. Right now, a man who may well be innocent, Troy Davis, is facing execution in Georgia. Seven of nine witnesses have recanted their testimony against him, but no court has ever heard his claim of innocence. Any day now, the U.S. Supreme Court may, or may not, intervene to save his life.

Furthermore, the cost of executing a prisoner is far greater than keeping him in prison for life. A recent New Jersey Policy Perspectives report concluded that the state's death penalty has cost taxpayers $253 million since 1983, a figure that is over and above the costs that would have been incurred had the state utilized a sentence of life without parole instead of death.

A number of states are currently considering repealing the death penalty. Just this week, former CA Attorney General John Van de Kamp called for an end to California's death penalty because it would save $1 billion over five years at a time when the state is near bankruptcy. Only three countries in the world -- China, Iran and Saudi Arabia -- execute more prisoners than the U.S. and more than 128 nations have abolished the death penalty.

This latest study validates the need for the U.S. to end a practice that harkens back to the days of the Wild West. If executions hold no value to deter other crimes and if we can't avoid the risk of executing the innocent and if they are overwhelmingly burdening state budgets, why not relegate them to history? To paraphrase an old tune, "Executions? What are they any good for? Absolutely nothing."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-abrams/experts-agree-death-penal_b_217394.html
 
The Innocence Project

There have been 259 post-conviction DNA exonerations in United States history. These stories are becoming more familiar as more innocent people gain their freedom through postconviction testing. They are not proof, however, that our system is righting itself.

The common themes that run through these cases — from global problems like poverty and racial issues to criminal justice issues like eyewitness misidentification, invalid or improper forensic science, overzealous police and prosecutors and inept defense counsel — cannot be ignored and continue to plague our criminal justice system.

* Seventeen people had been sentenced to death before DNA proved their innocence and led to their release.

* The average sentence served by DNA exonerees has been 13 years.

* About 70 percent of those exonerated by DNA testing are members of minority groups.

* In almost 40 percent of the cases profiled here, the actual perpetrator has been identified by DNA testing.

* Exonerations have been won in 34 states and Washington, D.C.

contributing_causes_225.gif
 
The Innocence Project

There have been 259 post-conviction DNA exonerations in United States history. These stories are becoming more familiar as more innocent people gain their freedom through postconviction testing. They are not proof, however, that our system is righting itself.

The common themes that run through these cases — from global problems like poverty and racial issues to criminal justice issues like eyewitness misidentification, invalid or improper forensic science, overzealous police and prosecutors and inept defense counsel — cannot be ignored and continue to plague our criminal justice system.

* Seventeen people had been sentenced to death before DNA proved their innocence and led to their release.

* The average sentence served by DNA exonerees has been 13 years.

* About 70 percent of those exonerated by DNA testing are members of minority groups.

* In almost 40 percent of the cases profiled here, the actual perpetrator has been identified by DNA testing.

* Exonerations have been won in 34 states and Washington, D.C.

contributing_causes_225.gif

Yurtsie says you're a hack, troll.
 
of course they are not identical, stop being obtuse

the issue is irreversable loss...some idiot claimed death was the only "permanent" loss...even you agree that is false

now...for the second time

you don't support abolishing the entire penal system because someone will irreversably lose time from their life and/or reputation.....so why should you have an issue with the death penalty in clear cut cases like the OP?

It's just not going in is it? I'm not for the death penalty for a variety of reasons that you're probably already familiar with - it doesn't work, the innocent victim thing, in the US case the gross unfairness, i don't like giving the state the power to execute its citizens, all that same old stuff that has been done to death on these boards for a long long time.

I can also point out "clear cut" cases from our own legal history that, what do you know, turned out to be complete fabrications by the police aiming to 'fit up' a victim. You're either against the death penalty or you're not. There is no "i'm for executions as long as we're sure the chap did it", unless you're a bit of an idiot.
 
Look at this. This is the post of a male supremacist, but very few will notice this. I might be the only one.

The OP he refers to tells of the surviving man's two daughters and wife being murdered in a pretty horrific manner. The younger daughter and the wife were also raped. But then the daughters were tied to a bed and doused with gasoline and left to die.

What does the male supremacist focus on?

The rape. Notice he doesn't even mention the murders.

This is because the male supremacist views women as property. And their property was violated by another male.

And that is the crime.

are you fucking kidding me?

you obviously no of no one who has been raped and never talked to a rape survivor...the deaths are absolutely heinous and so is the arson....but rape, that is an extremely ugly crime

instead of focusing your energy on your hatred for me, go and talk to rape survivors you fucking bitch
 
are you fucking kidding me?

you obviously no of no one who has been raped and never talked to a rape survivor...the deaths are absolutely heinous and so is the arson....but rape, that is an extremely ugly crime

instead of focusing your energy on your hatred for me, go and talk to rape survivors you fucking bitch

You forgot to call Darla a stalker, hack, or troll. She must have hit a nerve, Yurtsie.

http://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/case-against-death-penalty
 
It's just not going in is it? I'm not for the death penalty for a variety of reasons that you're probably already familiar with - it doesn't work, the innocent victim thing, in the US case the gross unfairness, i don't like giving the state the power to execute its citizens, all that same old stuff that has been done to death on these boards for a long long time.

I can also point out "clear cut" cases from our own legal history that, what do you know, turned out to be complete fabrications by the police aiming to 'fit up' a victim. You're either against the death penalty or you're not. There is no "i'm for executions as long as we're sure the chap did it", unless you're a bit of an idiot.

charver, you're usually a smart guy, but you're being stupid on this....

i'm not running around saying "its not sinking in is it charver....!!!!!!"....no, i'm trying to discuss the issue with you, you are entitled to your opinion, but i don't judge your opinion

death penatly does work, do you really need me to remind you of history and current countries that enforce the death penatly quickly and their crime rates vs the US? and there are in fact people that are for the death penalty only in clear cut cases, but you just want to insult them instead of discussing the issue with them

i could just as easily claim you care more about the perp than the victim, do you really want to continue your stupid game?
 
The Innocence Project

There have been 259 post-conviction DNA exonerations in United States history. These stories are becoming more familiar as more innocent people gain their freedom through postconviction testing. They are not proof, however, that our system is righting itself.

The common themes that run through these cases — from global problems like poverty and racial issues to criminal justice issues like eyewitness misidentification, invalid or improper forensic science, overzealous police and prosecutors and inept defense counsel — cannot be ignored and continue to plague our criminal justice system.

* Seventeen people had been sentenced to death before DNA proved their innocence and led to their release.

* The average sentence served by DNA exonerees has been 13 years.

* About 70 percent of those exonerated by DNA testing are members of minority groups.

* In almost 40 percent of the cases profiled here, the actual perpetrator has been identified by DNA testing.

* Exonerations have been won in 34 states and Washington, D.C.

contributing_causes_225.gif

while no life is worth less than any other life, 17 is a very small number compared to those who are guilty

would you agree?

let me ask you this:

people are killed in or by an automobile because of human or mechanical error....should we all stop driving?
 
charver, you're usually a smart guy, but you're being stupid on this....

i'm not running around saying "its not sinking in is it charver....!!!!!!"....no, i'm trying to discuss the issue with you, you are entitled to your opinion, but i don't judge your opinion

death penatly does work, do you really need me to remind you of history and current countries that enforce the death penatly quickly and their crime rates vs the US? and there are in fact people that are for the death penalty only in clear cut cases, but you just want to insult them instead of discussing the issue with them

i could just as easily claim you care more about the perp than the victim, do you really want to continue your stupid game?


Yeah, why don't you remind us of the countries that currently enforce the death penalty "quickly" and their crime rates as compared to the U.S. (If only the U.S. criminal justice system could be like China, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia!) When you're done, show me the crime rates of countries without the death penalty and the United States.

Jackass.

And your perp-victim thing is hilarious.
 
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