Anyone still against the death penalty?

Yeah, why don't you remind us of the countries that currently enforce the death penalty "quickly" and their crime rates as compared to the U.S. (If only the U.S. criminal justice system could be like China, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia!) When you're done, show me the crime rates of countries without the death penalty and the United States.

Jackass.

And your perp-victim thing is hilarious.

can't back up your claim can you....you do know the crime rate is far less in saudi arabia and iran etc....don't you

keep laughing nigel, its sad, but i know you need happiness wherever you can find it

the claim is:

the death penalty does not deter crime

no one has proven this and apparently you can't either
 
while no life is worth less than any other life, 17 is a very small number compared to those who are guilty

would you agree?

let me ask you this:

people are killed in or by an automobile because of human or mechanical error....should we all stop driving?

Oh My God...this is literally one of the most evil posts I have ever read.

He's willing to kill some innocents as long as he gets his way.

shudder...
 
while no life is worth less than any other life, 17 is a very small number compared to those who are guilty

would you agree?

let me ask you this:

people are killed in or by an automobile because of human or mechanical error....should we all stop driving?

Idiots fail to make their point when debating....should Yurtsie stop trying?

Unlike all other criminal punishments, the death penalty is irrevocable. Speaking to the French Chamber of Deputies in 1830, years after having witnessed the excesses of the French Revolution, the Marquis de Lafayette said, "I shall ask for the abolition of the punishment of death until I have the infallibility of human judgment demonstrated to me."

Although some proponents of capital punishment (YURTSIE) would argue that its merits are worth the occasional execution of innocent people, most would hasten to insist that there is little likelihood of the innocent being executed. However, a large body of evidence from the 1980s and 1990s shows that innocent people are often convicted of crimes – including capital crimes – and that some have been executed.

Since 1900, in this country, there have been on the average more than four cases each year in which an entirely innocent person was convicted of murder. Scores of these individuals were sentenced to death. In many cases, a reprieve or commutation arrived just hours, or even minutes, before the scheduled execution. These erroneous convictions have occurred in virtually every jurisdiction from one end of the nation to the other. Nor have they declined in recent years, despite the new death penalty statutes approved by the Supreme Court.

Consider this handful of representative cases:

In 1985, in Maryland, Kirk Bloodsworth was sentenced to death for rape and murder, despite the testimony of alibi witnesses. In 1986 his conviction was reversed on grounds of withheld evidence pointing to another suspect; he was retried, re-convicted, and sentenced to life in prison. In 1993, newly available DNA evidence proved he was not the rapist-killer, and he was released after the prosecution dismissed the case. A year later he was awarded $300,000 for wrongful punishment.

In Mississippi, in 1990, Sabrina Butler was sentenced to death for killing her baby boy. She claimed the child died after attempts at resuscitation failed. On technical grounds her conviction was reversed in 1992. At retrial, she was acquitted when a neighbor corroborated Butler's explanation of the child's cause of death and the physician who performed the autopsy admitted his work had not been thorough.

In 1985, in Illinois, Rolando Cruz and Alejandro Hernandez were convicted of abduction, rape, and murder of a young girl and were sentenced to death. Shortly after, another man serving a life term in prison for similar crimes confessed that he alone was guilty; but his confession was inadmissible because he refused to repeat it in court unless the state waived the death penalty. Awarded a new trial in 1988, Cruz was again convicted and sentenced to death; Hernandez was also re-convicted, and sentenced to 80 years in prison. In 1992 the assistant attorney general assigned to prosecute the case on appeal resigned after becoming convinced of the defendants' innocence. The convictions were again overturned on appeal after DNA tests exonerated Cruz and implicated the prisoner who had earlier confessed. In 1995 the court ordered a directed verdict of acquittal, and sharply criticized the police for their unprofessional handling of the case. Hernandez was released on bail and the prosecution dropped all charges.

In Alabama, Walter McMillian was convicted of murdering a white woman in 1988. Despite the jury's recommendation of a life sentence, the judge sentenced him to death. The sole evidence leading the police to arrest McMillian was testimony of an ex-convict seeking favor with the prosecution. A dozen alibi witnesses (all African Americans, like McMillian) testified on McMillian's behalf, to no avail. On appeal, after tireless efforts by his attorney Bryan Stevenson, McMillian's conviction was reversed by the Alabama Court of Appeals. Stevenson uncovered prosecutorial suppression of exculpatory evidence and perjury by prosecution witnesses, and the new district attorney joined the defense in seeking dismissal of the charges.


Another 1980s Texas case tells an even more sordid story. In 1980 a black
high school janitor, Clarence Brandley, and his white co-worker found the body of a missing 16-year-old white schoolgirl. Interrogated by the police, they were told, "One of you two is going to hang for this." Looking at Brandley, the officer said, "Since you're the nigger, you're elected." In a classic case of rush to judgment, Brandley was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death. The circumstantial evidence against him was thin, other leads were ignored by the police, and the courtroom atmosphere reeked of racism. In 1986, Centurion Ministries – a volunteer group devoted to freeing wrongly convicted prisoners – came to Brandley's aid. Evidence had meanwhile emerged that another man had committed the murder for which Brandley was awaiting execution. Brandley was not released until 1990.39
Each of these cases has a reassuring ending: The innocent prisoner is saved from execution and released. But other cases are more troubling.

In 1992, Roger Keith Coleman was executed in Virginia despite widely publicized doubts surrounding his guilt and evidence that pointed to another person as the murderer – evidence that was never submitted at his trial. Not until late in the appeal process did anyone take seriously the possibility that the state was about to kill an innocent man, and then efforts to delay or nullify his execution failed.40 Coleman's case was marked with many of the circumstances found in other cases where the defendant was eventually cleared. Were Coleman still incarcerated, his friends and attorneys would have a strong incentive to resolve these questions. But because Coleman is dead, further inquiry into the crime for which he was convicted is extremely unlikely.


In 1990, Jesse Tafero was executed in Florida. He had been convicted in 1976 along with his wife, Sonia Jacobs, for murdering a state trooper. In 1981 Jacobs' death sentence was reduced on appeal to life imprisonment, and 11 years later her conviction was vacated by a federal court. The evidence on which Tafero and Jacobs had been convicted and sentenced was identical; it consisted mainly of the perjured testimony of an ex-convict who turned state's witness in order to avoid a death sentence. Had Tafero been alive in 1992, he no doubt would have been released along with Jacobs.41 Tafero's death is probably the clearest case in recent years of the execution of an innocent person.

Several factors help explain why the judicial system cannot guarantee that justice will never miscarry: overzealous prosecution, mistaken or perjured testimony, faulty police work, coerced confessions, the defendant's previous criminal record, inept defense counsel, seemingly conclusive circumstantial evidence, and community pressure for a conviction, among others. And when the system does go wrong, it is volunteers outside the criminal justice system – journalists, for example – who rectify the errors, not the police or prosecutors. To retain the death penalty in the face of the demonstrable failures of the system is unacceptable, especially since there are no strong overriding reasons to favor the death penalty.

http://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/case-against-death-penalty#irreversible
 
while no life is worth less than any other life, 17 is a very small number compared to those who are guilty

would you agree?

let me ask you this:

people are killed in or by an automobile because of human or mechanical error....should we all stop driving?


Holy shit. Just then you think Yurt's arguments cannot get any more stupider he makes a post like this and totally redeems himself. Great argument there, Yurt. Total winner.
 
Holy shit. Just then you think Yurt's arguments cannot get any more stupider he makes a post like this and totally redeems himself. Great argument there, Yurt. Total winner.

"More stupider". At first I thought Nigel made a grammatical error, but when I Googled it, a picture of Yurtsie arppeared. Now I'll have nightmares.
 
Holy shit. Just then you think Yurt's arguments cannot get any more stupider he makes a post like this and totally redeems himself. Great argument there, Yurt. Total winner.

really....thats it....

you disappoint me, but its not the first time

btw....kindergarten is over ---> there
 
charver, you're usually a smart guy, but you're being stupid on this....

i'm not running around saying "its not sinking in is it charver....!!!!!!"....no, i'm trying to discuss the issue with you, you are entitled to your opinion, but i don't judge your opinion

death penatly does work, do you really need me to remind you of history and current countries that enforce the death penatly quickly and their crime rates vs the US? and there are in fact people that are for the death penalty only in clear cut cases, but you just want to insult them instead of discussing the issue with them

i could just as easily claim you care more about the perp than the victim, do you really want to continue your stupid game?

No you were running around accusing me of "whining" and being "inane"

You know as well as i do that the deterrent effect of the death penalty is very, very dubious indeed. And if the death penalty is so indispensable as a deterrent then why have so many countries abandoned it? Although, to be fair, the list of countries who must have an excellent system of justice and tiny crime rates are -

* Afghanistan
* Antigua and Barbuda
* Bahamas
* Bahrain
* Bangladesh
* Barbados
* Belarus
* Belize
* Botswana
* Burundi
* Cameroon
* Chad
* China (People's Republic)
* Comoros
* Congo (Democratic Republic)
* Cuba
* Dominica
* Egypt
* Equatorial Guinea
* Eritrea
* Ethiopia
* Gabon
* Ghana
* Guatemala
* Guinea
* Guyana
* India
* Indonesia
* Iran
* Iraq
* Jamaica
* Japan
* Jordan
* Korea, North
* Korea, South
* Kuwait
* Laos
* Lebanon
* Lesotho
* Libya
* Malawi
* Malaysia
* Mongolia
* Nigeria
* Oman
* Pakistan
* Palestinian Authority
* Qatar
* St. Kitts and Nevis
* St. Lucia
* St. Vincent and the Grenadines
* Saudi Arabia
* Sierra Leone
* Singapore
* Somalia
* Sudan
* Swaziland
* Syria
* Taiwan
* Tajikistan
* Tanzania
* Thailand
* Trinidad and Tobago
* Uganda
* United Arab Emirates
* United States
* Vietnam
* Yemen
* Zambia
* Zim

If you want to claim i don't care about the victim go ahead. Neither of us are going to change our minds on this.
 
can't back up your claim can you....you do know the crime rate is far less in saudi arabia and iran etc....don't you

You misunderstand. I'm totally on board. We should emulate the criminal justice systems of Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China. Totally. It's be fucking awesome.

keep laughing nigel, its sad, but i know you need happiness wherever you can find it

the claim is:

the death penalty does not deter crime

no one has proven this and apparently you can't either


Oooh, this is fun. The claim is: the death penalty does deter crime. No one has proven this and apparently you can't either.

Now let's just think for a moment who should carry the burden of persuasion on this particular topic. On the one hand, you want to kill people and don't mind if you end up killing some innocents in the process. I don't want to kill anyone. Hmmmm . . . . tough call here.
 
Oh My God...this is literally one of the most evil posts I have ever read.

He's willing to kill some innocents as long as he gets his way.

shudder...

do innocent people die in war? do innocent people die in car accidents?

i'm willing to bet that your "way" is not not stop either of the above

you're being disingenuous and this has nothing to do with my way, if you really want to play this stupid game....your way is to give light sentences to rapists, murderers etc....

ZOMG....i said rapists first, ignore yurt, he hates women because he feels rape is a horrible crime

its unfortunate that you can't see how disgusting your post about me talking about rape is.....you must hate women
 
OTE=NigelTufnel;713476]You misunderstand. I'm totally on board. We should emulate the criminal justice systems of Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China. Totally. It's be fucking awesome.

really? i'm not for that, but your wild opinions no longer surprise me.

Oooh, this is fun. The claim is: the death penalty does deter crime. No one has proven this and apparently you can't either.

Now let's just think for a moment who should carry the burden of persuasion on this particular topic. On the one hand, you want to kill people and don't mind if you end up killing some innocents in the process. I don't want to kill anyone. Hmmmm . . . . tough call here

translation, i can't give yurt any evidence to support the claim that the death penalty doesn't work
 
You misunderstand. I'm totally on board. We should emulate the criminal justice systems of Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China. Totally. It's be fucking awesome.




Oooh, this is fun. The claim is: the death penalty does deter crime. No one has proven this and apparently you can't either.

Now let's just think for a moment who should carry the burden of persuasion on this particular topic. On the one hand, you want to kill people and don't mind if you end up killing some innocents in the process. I don't want to kill anyone. Hmmmm . . . . tough call here.

You're spraying spittle all over mommy's monitor, Yurtsie. Better wipe it down before she gets home.

Capital punishment is cruel and unusual.

It is cruel because it is a relic of the earliest days of penology, when slavery, branding, and other corporal punishments were commonplace. Like those barbaric practices, executions have no place in a civilized society.

It is unusual because only the United States of all the western industrialized nations engages in this punishment.

Opposing the death penalty does not mean sympathy with convicted murderers. On the contrary, murder demonstrates a lack of respect for human life.

For this very reason, murder is abhorrent, and a policy of state-authorized killings is immoral. It epitomizes the tragic inefficacy and brutality of violence, rather than reason, as the solution to difficult social problems.

Capital punishment denies due process of law. Its imposition is often arbitrary, and always irrevocable – forever depriving an individual of the opportunity to benefit from new evidence or new laws that might warrant the reversal of a conviction, or the setting aside of a death sentence.

The death penalty violates the constitutional guarantee of equal protection. It is applied randomly – and discriminatorily. It is imposed disproportionately upon those whose victims are white, offenders who are people of color, and on those who are poor and uneducated (Watch out Yurtsie - you could be at risk, since you qualify on both counts).

Changes in death sentencing have proved to be largely cosmetic. The defects in death-penalty laws, conceded by the Supreme Court in the early 1970s, have not been appreciably altered by the shift from unrestrained discretion to "guided discretion."

Such changes in death sentencing merely mask the impermissible randomness of a process that results in an execution.

The death penalty is not a viable form of crime control. When police chiefs were asked to rank the factors that, in their judgement, reduce the rate of violent crime, they mentioned curbing drug use and putting more officers on the street, longer sentences and gun control. They ranked the death penalty as least effective.

Politicians who preach the desirability of executions as a method of crime control deceive the public and mask their own failure to identify and confront the true causes of crime.

Capital punishment wastes resources. It squanders the time and energy of courts, prosecuting attorneys, defense counsel, juries, and courtroom and correctional personnel. It unduly burdens the criminal justice system, and it is thus counterproductive as an instrument for society's control of violent crime.

A society that respects life does not deliberately kill human beings.

An execution is a violent public spectacle of official homicide, and one that endorses killing to solve social problems – the worst possible example to set for the citizenry. Governments worldwide have often attempted to justify their lethal fury by extolling the purported benefits that such killing would bring to the rest of society.

The benefits of capital punishment are illusory, but the bloodshed and the resulting destruction of community decency are real.

Two conclusions are inescapable: Capital punishment does not deter crime, and the death penalty is uncivilized in theory and unfair and inequitable in practice.

http://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/case-against-death-penalty#irreversible
 
No you were running around accusing me of "whining" and being "inane"

You know as well as i do that the deterrent effect of the death penalty is very, very dubious indeed. And if the death penalty is so indispensable as a deterrent then why have so many countries abandoned it? Although, to be fair, the list of countries who must have an excellent system of justice and tiny crime rates are -



If you want to claim i don't care about the victim go ahead. Neither of us are going to change our minds on this.

bullshit, the claim is not dubious, your claim it has no effect is total horseshit and history proves that

i only claimed that because you're being an asshole instead of discussing the issue, eg, why i mentioned playing your game

why don't you show me the death penalty does not work, surely you have something to back up your opinion other than your opinion
 
can't back up your claim can you....you do know the crime rate is far less in saudi arabia and iran etc....don't you

keep laughing nigel, its sad, but i know you need happiness wherever you can find it

the claim is:

the death penalty does not deter crime

no one has proven this and apparently you can't either

I wonder if you are aware that Iran has an extremely serious drugs problem, here is how they deal with it. Would you advocate the same in the US?

art.iran.execution.gi.jpg


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/27/iran.executions/index.html
 
bullshit, the claim is not dubious, your claim it has no effect is total horseshit and history proves that

i only claimed that because you're being an asshole instead of discussing the issue, eg, why i mentioned playing your game

why don't you show me the death penalty does not work, surely you have something to back up your opinion other than your opinion

Unlike you, Yurtsie?

Try this:

A punishment can be an effective deterrent only if it is consistently and promptly employed. Capital punishment cannot be administered to meet these conditions.

The proportion of first-degree murderers who are sentenced to death is small, and of this group, an even smaller proportion of people are executed. Although death sentences in the mid-1990s have increased to about 300 per year, this is still only about one percent of all homicides known to the police.3

Of all those convicted on a charge of criminal homicide, only 3 percent – about 1 in 33 – are eventually sentenced to death.

Mandatory death row sentencing is unconstitutional. The possibility of increasing the number of convicted murderers sentenced to death and executed by enacting mandatory death penalty laws was ruled unconstitutional in 1976 (Woodson v. North Carolina, 428 U.S. 280).

A considerable time between the imposition of the death sentence and the actual execution is unavoidable, given the procedural safeguards required by the courts in capital cases. Starting with selecting the trial jury, murder trials take far longer when the ultimate penalty is involved. Furthermore, post-conviction appeals in death-penalty cases are far more frequent than in other cases. These factors increase the time and cost of administering criminal justice.

We can reduce delay and costs only by abandoning the procedural safeguards and constitutional rights of suspects, defendants, and convicts – with the attendant high risk of convicting the wrong person and executing the innocent.

Persons who commit murder and other crimes of personal violence either may or may not premeditate their crimes.

When crime is planned, the criminal ordinarily concentrates on escaping detection, arrest, and conviction.

The threat of even the severest punishment will not discourage those who expect to escape detection and arrest. It is impossible to imagine how the threat of any punishment could prevent a crime that is not premeditated.

Gangland killings, air piracy, drive-by shootings, and kidnapping for ransom are among the graver felonies that continue to be committed because some individuals think they are too clever to get caught.

Most capital crimes are committed in the heat of the moment.

Most capital crimes are committed during moments of great emotional stress or under the influence of drugs or alcohol, when logical thinking has been suspended. In such cases, violence is inflicted by persons heedless of the consequences to themselves as well as to others.

Furthermore, the death penalty is a futile threat for political terrorists because they usually act in the name of an ideology that honors its martyrs.

Capital punishment doesn't solve our society's crime problem. Threatening capital punishment leaves the underlying causes of crime unaddressed, and ignores the many political and diplomatic sanctions (such as treaties against asylum for international terrorists) that could appreciably lower the incidence of terrorism.

Capital punishment is a useless weapon in the so-called "war on drugs." The attempt to reduce murders in the drug trade by threat of severe punishment ignores the fact that anyone trafficking in illegal drugs is already risking his life in violent competition with other dealers.

It is irrational to think that the death penalty – a remote threat at best – will avert murders committed in drug turf wars or by street-level dealers.

If, however, severe punishment can deter crime, then long-term imprisonment is severe enough to deter any rational person from committing a violent crime.

The vast preponderance of the evidence shows that the death penalty is no more effective than imprisonment in deterring murder and that it may even be an incitement to criminal violence.

Death-penalty states as a group do not have lower rates of criminal homicide than non-death-penalty states.

During the early 1970's death-penalty states averaged an annual rate of 7.9 criminal homicides per 100,000 population; abolitionist states averaged a rate of 5.1.5

Use of the death penalty in a given state may actually increase the subsequent rate of criminal homicide. In Oklahoma, for example, reintroduction of executions in 1990 may have produced "an abrupt and lasting increase in the level of stranger homicides" in the form of "one additional stranger-homicide incident per month."

Why? Perhaps because "a return to the exercise of the death penalty weakens socially based inhibitions against the use of lethal force to settle disputes…. "

In adjacent states – one with the death penalty and the other without it – the state that practices the death penalty does not always show a consistently lower rate of criminal homicide.

For example, between l990 and l994, the homicide rates in Wisconsin and Iowa (non-death-penalty states) were half the rates of their neighbor, Illinois – which restored the death penalty in l973, and by 1994 had sentenced 223 persons to death and carried out two executions.

On-duty police officers do not suffer a higher rate of criminal assault and homicide in abolitionist states than they do in death-penalty states. Between l973 and l984, for example, lethal assaults against police were not significantly more, or less, frequent in abolitionist states than in death-penalty states.

There is "no support for the view that the death penalty provides a more effective deterrent to police homicides than alternative sanctions. Not for a single year was evidence found that police are safer in jurisdictions that provide for capital punishment."

Prisoners and prison personnel do not suffer a higher rate of criminal assault and homicide from life-term prisoners in abolition states than they do in death-penalty states.

Between 1992 and 1995, 176 inmates were murdered by other prisoners; the vast majority (84%) were killed in death penalty jurisdictions. During the same period about 2% of all assaults on prison staff were committed by inmates in abolition jurisdictions.

Evidently, the threat of the death penalty "does not even exert an incremental deterrent effect over the threat of a lesser punishment in the abolitionist states."

Actual experience thus establishes beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter murder. No comparable body of evidence contradicts that conclusion.

Using methods pioneered by economists, three investigators concluded that capital punishment does deter murderers. Subsequently, however, several qualified investigators independently examined these claims – and all rejected them.

In its thorough report on the effects of criminal sanctions on crime rates, the National Academy of Sciences concluded: "It seems unthinkable to us to base decisions on the use of the death penalty" on such "fragile" and "uncertain" results. "We see too many plausible explanations for [these] findings... other than the theory that capital punishment deters murder."

Furthermore, there are clinically documented cases in which the death penalty actually incited the capital crimes it was supposed to deter.

These include instances of the so-called suicide-by-execution syndrome – persons who wanted to die but feared taking their own lives, and committed murder so that the state would kill them.

Although inflicting the death penalty guarantees that the condemned person will commit no further crimes, it does not have a demonstrable deterrent effect on other individuals. Further, it is a high price to pay when studies show that few convicted murderers commit further crimes of violence.

Researchers examined the prison and post-release records of 533 prisoners on death row in 1972 whose sentences were reduced to incarceration for life by the Supreme Court's ruling in Furman.

This research showed that seven had committed another murder.

But the same study showed that in four other cases, an innocent man had been sentenced to death.

Recidivism among murderers does occasionally happen, but it occurs less frequently than most people believe; the media rarely distinguish between a convicted offender who murders while on parole, and a paroled murderer who murders again. Government data show that about one in twelve death row prisoners had a prior homicide conviction.

But as there is no way to predict reliably which convicted murderers will try to kill again, the only way to prevent all such recidivism is to execute every convicted murderer – a policy no one seriously advocates. Equally effective but far less inhumane is a policy of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

http://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/case-against-death-penalty#deterrent
 
Why does this happen?

murderratesDP&NDP.jpg

really? thats it?

no countries and this supposed graph which proves what?

certaintly nothing from your POV as you see, you're using the death penatly as applied in america, which i have stated is faulty and slow

i know you can do better, so i'll wait
 
I wonder if you are aware that Iran has an extremely serious drugs problem, here is how they deal with it. Would you advocate the same in the US?

art.iran.execution.gi.jpg


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/27/iran.executions/index.html

sorry, but red herring

drug problems are not the same as murders and rapes

care to try again....but at least you can rest easy that onceler won't jump all over you for a false analogy or strawman....he only does that to those on the right
 
really? thats it?

no countries and this supposed graph which proves what?

certaintly nothing from your POV as you see, you're using the death penatly as applied in america, which i have stated is faulty and slow

i know you can do better, so i'll wait

You'll have a long wait, i'm going to bed.

Why not google it?

And btw. If you want to say "Fuck You" to me why not just do it on here rather than fanny about with all this reputation bollocks?
 
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