Obama against mandate

[Cancel 2016.2]

Actually, the law has a lot of affordability measures. You can pretend they don't exist if you want to, but they're in there.

You can pretend they do exist. There is NOTHING in there that will address the cost increases. This bill will make the plans either more expensive or it will make the plans cover less. To pretend this bill will do anything to lower health care costs is a joke.

Do us a favor.... list the provisions that you think will drive overall health care costs down.

 

[Bonestorm]

You can pretend they do exist. There is NOTHING in there that will address the cost increases. This bill will make the plans either more expensive or it will make the plans cover less. To pretend this bill will do anything to lower health care costs is a joke.

Do us a favor.... list the provisions that you think will drive overall health care costs down.

You are conflating two separate things: the cost of health insurance and the cost of health care. They aren't the same. Regarding Obama's quote, the cost of health insurance is the relevant cost and the bill has lots of affordability measures to allow people to obtain affordable health insurance.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You are conflating two separate things: the cost of health insurance and the cost of health care. They aren't the same. Regarding Obama's quote, the cost of health insurance is the relevant cost and the bill has lots of affordability measures to allow people to obtain affordable health insurance.

Tell us genius... what is it that health insurance 'insures' us against? What does the health insurance PAY for?

Is it....... HEALTH CARE COSTS?

You bet ya... it is indeed.... HEALTH CARE COSTS.

So if Health Care COSTS increase... the insurance for health care will also increase.

Since the bill has 'lots of affordability measures' I am certain you will be able to list a few of them for us....

 

[Onceler]

Tell us genius... what is it that health insurance 'insures' us against? What does the health insurance PAY for?

Is it....... HEALTH CARE COSTS?

You bet ya... it is indeed.... HEALTH CARE COSTS.

So if Health Care COSTS increase... the insurance for health care will also increase.

Since the bill has 'lots of affordability measures' I am certain you will be able to list a few of them for us....

For starters, isn't there a regulatory board to block unjustified rate increases? I also read that there are subsidies for middle class families.

Would you deny that these are "affordability measures"?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

For starters, isn't there a regulatory board to block unjustified rate increases? I also read that there are subsidies for middle class families.

Would you deny that these are "affordability measures"?

1) yes, I believe there is a board for UNJUSTIFIED rate increases. But this is not a cost reducer. It just says there can't be unjustified cost increases. It does nothing to stop continued justified increases in health care costs.

2) Tell me... who PAYS for the subsidies? Sorry, but these are not cost reducers either.

 

[Onceler]

1) yes, I believe there is a board for UNJUSTIFIED rate increases. But this is not a cost reducer. It just says there can't be unjustified cost increases. It does nothing to stop continued justified increases in health care costs.

2) Tell me... who PAYS for the subsidies? Sorry, but these are not cost reducers either.

Well, for the 1st one, your argument is basically that there were no unjustified cost increases with the old way of doing things, which is ridiculous. If there is a way to reduce unjustified cost increases, the natural consequence of that is better affordability.

For the 2nd, mainly the rich. I won't deny that this is a tax the rich to pay for the poor & middle class kind of plan.

For the record, I don't support Obamacare. I just think the premise of the thread is misleading, given the full context of Obama's remarks & the fact that there ARE affordability measures in the plan, like it or not.

 

[Bonestorm]

Tell us genius... what is it that health insurance 'insures' us against? What does the health insurance PAY for?

Is it....... HEALTH CARE COSTS?

You bet ya... it is indeed.... HEALTH CARE COSTS.

So if Health Care COSTS increase... the insurance for health care will also increase.

Not necessarily.

Since the bill has 'lots of affordability measures' I am certain you will be able to list a few of them for us....

Well, there are subsidies.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Not necessarily.




Well, there are subsidies.

Yes moron... if health care costs go up... so do the insurance premiums. Every friggin time. The insurance companies maintain around 7% profit margins. That is not going to be changing due to this legislation.

Subsidies are not COST savings. Someone has to PAY for those subsidies, hence they are neutral to overall health care costs. It will do nothing to reduce health care expenditures overall.

Bottom line.... Obamacare does nothing to address overall health care cost increases. Just as I stated. Pretending otherwise is simply absurd.

So again... the quote from Obama is absolutely funny given what he actually did.

He did nothing to address cost increases to the system, at the same time he mandated people buy coverage.

 

[Bonestorm]

Yes moron... if health care costs go up... so do the insurance premiums. Every friggin time. The insurance companies maintain around 7% profit margins. That is not going to be changing due to this legislation.

Not necessarily. If you increase the risk pool on the low risk side (people who buy health insurance but have no health care costs) it does not necessarily follow that health insurance premiums go up with health care costs.

Subsidies are not COST savings. Someone has to PAY for those subsidies, hence they are neutral to overall health care costs. It will do nothing to reduce health care expenditures overall.

Bottom line.... Obamacare does nothing to address overall health care cost increases. Just as I stated. Pretending otherwise is simply absurd.

So again... the quote from Obama is absolutely funny given what he actually did.

He did nothing to address cost increases to the system, at the same time he mandated people buy coverage.

Again, you are confusing two separate issues and you are conflating "cost savings" with affordability. The law makes health insurance affordable.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Not necessarily. If you increase the risk pool on the low risk side (people who buy health insurance but have no health care costs) it does not necessarily follow that health insurance premiums go up with health care costs.

Wow... you truly are a fucking moron when it comes to economics. If you pump 32 million new people into the system, you are dramatically increasing demand while not seeing any increase in supply. When you also have continuing cost increases in overall health care expenses, premiums go up.

You are also quite ignorant if you think the low risk side increases are going to be the majority of those 32 million.

Again, you are confusing two separate issues and you are conflating "cost savings" with affordability. The law makes health insurance affordable.

Like I stated, you are an idiot when it comes to economics. If overall health care costs are INCREASING.... you are not making it 'more affordable'. You are simply playing a shell game of HOW people pay for that health care.

tell us .... WHERE the money comes from for those subsidies you mentioned?

 

[Damocles]

Subsidies are cost shifting, not cost reducing. It's silly to say that people are paying "this" money here, therefore it "costs less"... It clearly doesn't. It just hides that cost through forced "contributions" to your care.

 

[Onceler]

Like I stated, you are an idiot when it comes to economics. If overall health care costs are INCREASING.... you are not making it 'more affordable'. You are simply playing a shell game of HOW people pay for that health care.

tell us .... WHERE the money comes from for those subsidies you mentioned?

I answered that; it mainly will come from the rich.

I don't get your argument here. "Affordability" in the context of Obama's remarks, or my own interpretation of the word in almost any context, deals w/ the individuals who actually pay. You're trying to make some weird argument that because OVERALL costs aren't changing much, it's not affecting some vague concept of OVERALL affordability.

With the measures in the bill, the effort is to make it affordable to those individuals & families who have a hard time affording it now...

 

[Damocles]

I answered that; it mainly will come from the rich.

I don't get your argument here. "Affordability" in the context of Obama's remarks, or my own interpretation of the word in almost any context, deals w/ the individuals who actually pay. You're trying to make some weird argument that because OVERALL costs aren't changing much, it's not affecting some vague concept of OVERALL affordability.

With the measures in the bill, the effort is to make it affordable to those individuals & families who have a hard time affording it now...

So somebody is paying something it makes it "cost reducing"?

God that's just plain inane.

The problems we face in health care isn't that somebody else isn't paying enough, it is the rising costs of the care. To shift the burden doesn't make it cheaper by one iota.

 

[Onceler]

So somebody is paying something it makes it "cost reducing"?

God that's just plain inane.

The problems we face in health care isn't that somebody else isn't paying enough, it is the rising costs of the care. To shift the burden doesn't make it cheaper by one iota.

What's inane to me is someone taking my words about affordability & pretending I'm talking about cost reduction.

That's what's inane.

I don't disagree w/ you about the problems we face in healthcare. That's not the discussion that is being had here, though....

 

[Damocles]

What's inane to me is someone taking my words about affordability & pretending I'm talking about cost reduction.

That's what's inane.

I don't disagree w/ you about the problems we face in healthcare. That's not the discussion that is being had here, though....

Well, we're not taking them out of context you told us that there were cost reducing parts of the bill. So far you've listed the cost shifting but nothing about reducing.

Can you tell us how this bill even got close to working towards the actual problem we face in health care, or will you just stop trying to tell me that cost-shifting is somehow reducing the cost at all? "Affordability measures" in the form of "from those with the ability to those with the need" are not anything we should be celebrating here in the US.

 

[Bonestorm]

Wow... you truly are a fucking moron when it comes to economics. If you pump 32 million new people into the system, you are dramatically increasing demand while not seeing any increase in supply. When you also have continuing cost increases in overall health care expenses, premiums go up.

You are also quite ignorant if you think the low risk side increases are going to be the majority of those 32 million.

You assume things that are not necessarily true and again conflate heath insurance costs with health care costs. It is possible for health care costs to increase while health insurance costs do not. I'm not saying it is probably or likely, just that it isn't necessarily true that increased health care costs means increased health insurance costs.

Like I stated, you are an idiot when it comes to economics. If overall health care costs are INCREASING.... you are not making it 'more affordable'. You are simply playing a shell game of HOW people pay for that health care.

I know you think you're really smart, but if you would just slow down and read what I am writing it would redound to your benefit. I have not made any assertions about health care costs. I simply said that there are provisions of the law which make health insurance affordable.

tell us .... WHERE the money comes from for those subsidies you mentioned?

A variety of sources.

 

[wiseones2cents]

No, I don't see the humor, mainly because it is more than slightly dishonest. Here's the full quote:



It's the kind of cheap stunt you'd expect from a political opponent in a campaign, not an impartial judge tasked with determining whether an act of Congress is constitutional.

WOW! Talk about spin. And there you have it folks. How mis-information is spread to serve self interest and not that of the people.

That is correct. You want to help homeless people?Make homes(and therefore rent), more affordable.

I see some pretty intelligent people on this forum. Look forward to participating in the debates, since some how I am the only one that seems to not have access to my other board. I'm not banned or anything, I just somehow have access to the entire site except the message board, yet it seems the rest have access.

I shouldn't have not named the name that cannot be spoken. "Jew" LOL

Are the elites up to their old trick? Just like they shut down the AOL board?

So much for free speech.

And it always seems to happen just when things are heating up.

 

[Onceler]

Well, we're not taking them out of context you told us that there were cost reducing parts of the bill. So far you've listed the cost shifting but nothing about reducing.

Can you tell us how this bill even got close to working towards the actual problem we face in health care, or will you just stop trying to tell me that cost-shifting is somehow reducing the cost at all? "Affordability measures" in the form of "from those with the ability to those with the need" are not anything we should be celebrating here in the US.

I'm not celebrating it. I'm talking about the fact that the bill DOES make it more affordable for the people Obama is talking about in his quote. I'm not justifying it, or endorsing it.

You're trying to make what was being discussed fit what you would like to be discussed. But, we weren't discussing what you would like to be discussed. And it's idiotic - like, bigtime idiotic - for you to jump in the middle and say my comments on what we actually were discussing inane, in the context of the discussion you would prefer we have...

 

[tinfoil]

It is possible for health care costs to increase while health insurance costs do not. I'm not saying it is probably or likely, just that it isn't necessarily true that increased health care costs means increased health insurance costs.

LOL OMG you are so ignorant.

Dumbass, it's not possible for the costs to increase and the insurance costs NOT to follow. Do you think the insurance compnay is going to take a loss?

Wow, no wonder you buy liberal ideas. You are really stupid

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

its hilarious how nigel is trying to twist obama's word by ridiculously claiming the full quote changes the context or changes his sentence where he is against the mandate. the full quote doesn't take anything away from the sentence, nor does it alter his stance against the mandate.