County board votes to fly the flag

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King of Kings said:
I personally don't believe that the South can find redemption until it stops waving that flag.
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Here's the thing.. the flag doesn't cause racism. The flag is an inanimate object, it doesn't create hate, fear, bigotry, prejudice, or any other emotion. We attach significance to the flag, we apply symbolism, we make the association with ideologies. The flag can be banned, and we can destroy any representation of the flag, and forbid it from ever being viewed by human eyes again... it won't end racism, it won't stop people from being prejudiced bigots, and it won't erase the history we have to live with.

I can't speak for all who wave the Confederate flag anymore than you can speak for all who wave the American flag, I can only offer my personal testimony of what the flag represents to me. I know a good many people who share my respect for the flag, for much the same reason as I do, so I can tell you, the Confederate flag is not universally seen as the sign of racism or representative of racist viewpoints. It seems a lot of people assume that to be the case, because that is how they have made it in their own minds, that is what the flag means to them. Bigotry, is defined as the belief that your view is correct, and everyone else is wrong. When I see people stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the historic meaning and significance of the flag, in order to prop up the incorrect view that it's a universal symbol of racism, I see pure unadulterated bigotry. Stop being intolerant ignorant bigots, and understand, you are wrong... the flag has many meanings to many people, it does not universally denote or imply racism.
 
Heywood Jablowme said:
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Is this one of your usual racist statements?

Looks like you spelled the word "hell" correctly.
 
Dixie said:
Here's the thing.. the flag doesn't cause racism. The flag is an inanimate object, it doesn't create hate, fear, bigotry, prejudice, or any other emotion. We attach significance to the flag, we apply symbolism, we make the association with ideologies. The flag can be banned, and we can destroy any representation of the flag, and forbid it from ever being viewed by human eyes again... it won't end racism, it won't stop people from being prejudiced bigots, and it won't erase the history we have to live with.

I can't speak for all who wave the Confederate flag anymore than you can speak for all who wave the American flag, I can only offer my personal testimony of what the flag represents to me. I know a good many people who share my respect for the flag, for much the same reason as I do, so I can tell you, the Confederate flag is not universally seen as the sign of racism or representative of racist viewpoints. It seems a lot of people assume that to be the case, because that is how they have made it in their own minds, that is what the flag means to them. Bigotry, is defined as the belief that your view is correct, and everyone else is wrong. When I see people stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the historic meaning and significance of the flag, in order to prop up the incorrect view that it's a universal symbol of racism, I see pure unadulterated bigotry. Stop being intolerant ignorant bigots, and understand, you are wrong... the flag has many meanings to many people, it does not universally denote or imply racism.
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I hate the flag more for its association with treason and dead American soldiers than for its association with racism.
 
Liberty said:
I feel the same way.

Except I blame Lincoln.

But what the heck.

That was 150 years ago.
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Aside from Lincoln's upholding of the US Constitution's Article II, Section 10 outright prohibition on states joining a confederation, what exactly did he do that upsets you. And what does it have in common with treason?
 
King of Kings said:
I hate the flag more for its association with treason and dead American soldiers than for its association with racism.
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Well then, you should hate the American flag as well. What the CSA did in 1861, is no different than what our Founding Fathers did in 1776. And the actual Declaration of Independence states it very explicitly: When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

And tell me something, soldiers from Tennessee, South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia.... were these people non-Americans?
 
King of Kings said:
Aside from Lincoln's upholding of the US Constitution's Article II, Section 10 outright prohibition on states joining a confederation, what exactly did he do that upsets you. And what does it have in common with treason?
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Article II, Section 10??????

You must mean Article I, Section 10. The key point isn't entering into a confederation, as much as leaving the union. The point of this part of the section is entering into a confederation while being part of the union.

No state joined the union with the thought of never being able to leave the union. If this was the case, the constitution wouldn't have been agreed to. The same is true with our relationship with the UN. As I've brought up before, is our role in the UN a bonding agreement that is forever, or can we leave? If we do leave, do they have the right to make war against us and make us stay in?

Also, Lincoln did a lot of things that I could go on, and on about. Things even Threedee wouldn't like. (I think) I found out years ago, after doing a lot of reading on Lincoln that he loved "The Communist Manifesto" and Marx. Turns out that they wrote to each other. This explained a lot of why Lincoln did the things he did.

Also, Dixie makes a good point in Post number 71. I would have worded it a little differently, but the founders would have never entered into any agreement that did away with their right as a state to leave the union.
 
Also, Dixie makes a good point in Post number 71. I would have worded it a little differently, but the founders would have never entered into any agreement that did away with their right as a state to leave the union.
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The uninformed often make the error of interpreting this whole thing on the basis of our understanding of 'Federal' government, as opposed to what it actually was, a fundamental argument between Federalization or Confederation. I often see the statement: "The South stood for...." and here's the thing, the Confederate States were formed as a CONFEDERATION of states, not a centralized FEDERAL government. They had a functional central governing body, but the issue of states rights was paramount to what they stood for. It was a completely different system of government, than we traditionally think of, because we have always known and understood a 'Federal' system, as we've always had. The STATES held various viewpoints and stood for various things, the CSA was merely a loose confederation of those states, it didn't "stand for" anything, really, except the rights of the individual states.

Their beliefs were, that states did not forfeit their sovereign status to the federal government, by joining the United States. They believed it was within their right to secede from the Union, and the secession was justified because of Constitutional violations against them by the federal government. Much the same inclination our Founding Fathers had to declare independence from the British, and for much the same general reason. The ONLY difference, and ONLY reason anyone can dare proclaim it "treasonous" is because the CSA lost the war.

And speaking of the war... It was NOT a "Civil War" ....a traditional civil war involves two sides battling over autonomous control, and the South had no intentions of controlling the North. They sought independence, it was a "Revolutionary War" more than a "Civil War."
 
Heywood Jablowme said:
Are you suggesting that the American flag is offensive because racists have displayed it?
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Is that not what you've suggested regarding the Confederate flag?

We know from history, the Confederate flag was not designed or intended as a symbol of hate or racism. The connection you make with the flag and racism, is how it has been used by hate groups and racists, but the same is also true with the American flag.

While you certainly have the right to display the Confederate flag, your dogged insistence that "it's not offensive" underscores the attitude that I believe largely accounts for the conservative movements lack of support among minorities.
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No one can ever state that something is or isn't offensive to someone else, that is a matter of personal preferences and opinion. What you may find offensive, I may find pleasurable and enjoyable, and visa versa. The Constitution has never guaranteed you, or anyone else, the right to not be offended. I am offended by lowlife anti-American protesters! I am offended sitting next to someone on the bus who hasn't bathed in a week! I am offended that we operate murder factories for abortions! LOTS of things OFFEND me, but I don't have the right to run around spreading lies and disinformation about it, or take fundamental rights away from others, because I am offended!
 
Liberty said:
Article II, Section 10??????

You must mean Article I, Section 10. The key point isn't entering into a confederation, as much as leaving the union. The point of this part of the section is entering into a confederation while being part of the union.

No state joined the union with the thought of never being able to leave the union. If this was the case, the constitution wouldn't have been agreed to. The same is true with our relationship with the UN. As I've brought up before, is our role in the UN a bonding agreement that is forever, or can we leave? If we do leave, do they have the right to make war against us and make us stay in?

Also, Lincoln did a lot of things that I could go on, and on about. Things even Threedee wouldn't like. (I think) I found out years ago, after doing a lot of reading on Lincoln that he loved "The Communist Manifesto" and Marx. Turns out that they wrote to each other. This explained a lot of why Lincoln did the things he did.

Also, Dixie makes a good point in Post number 71. I would have worded it a little differently, but the founders would have never entered into any agreement that did away with their right as a state to leave the union.
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The only thing he did that's a bit disappointing is that he kept the South in the Union.
 
Dixie said:
Well then, you should hate the American flag as well. What the CSA did in 1861, is no different than what our Founding Fathers did in 1776. And the actual Declaration of Independence states it very explicitly: When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

And tell me something, soldiers from Tennessee, South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia.... were these people non-Americans?
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The South wrote most eloquently about why it was leaving the Union in its secession documents. Explained perfectly why it had become necessary for them.

Also, the soldiers who died were Confederates, and not Americans, as that title is reserved for citizens of the US. North Americans who die fighting for Canada are Canadians, and North Americans who die fighting for Mexico are Mexicans.
 
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