BartenderElite
Verified User
Can you detail the hostile or aggressive actions that NATO has taken against Russia prior to this invasion?
Zelensky rejected peace offer days before Russian offensive – WSJ
- Thread starter anatta
- Start date
Can you detail the hostile or aggressive actions that NATO has taken against Russia prior to this invasion?
BartenderElite
Verified User
You don't have to answer that. NATO is a defensive alliance. They are not "hostile" or aggressive.
I foresee the West helping to rebuild Uk when this is over, if it's safe. I don't see Russia doing the same if they "win". This will only move Uk more to the West.
Add to that Uk is forever changed. They'll probably hate the Russians as much as the Poles do. It didn't have to be that way.
Russians and Ukraines could have still considered themselves slavic brothers with Uk striving to be a democracy. Once again, no threat to russia but to Putin.
Russian hostility 'partly caused by west', claims former US defence head
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/09/russian-hostility-to-west-partly-caused-by-west
Perry writes that he argued for a slower expansion of Nato so as not to alienate Russia during the initial period of post-Soviet courtship and cooperation. Richard Holbrooke, the US diplomat, led the opposing argument at the time, and was ultimately supported by the vice-president, Al Gore, who argued “we could manage the problems this would create with Russia”.
Perry said the decision reflected a contemptuous attitude among US officials towards the troubled former superpower.
“It wasn’t that we listened to their argument and said he don’t agree with that argument,” he said. “Basically the people I was arguing with when I tried to put the Russian point ... the response that I got was really: ‘Who cares what they think? They’re a third-rate power.’ And of course that point of view got across to the Russians as well. That was when we started sliding down that path.”
Perry pointed to in the poisoning of US-Russian relations was Washington DC’s support for pro-democracy demonstrators in the “colour revolutions” in former Soviet republics including Georgia and Ukraine. Perry agreed with the ethical reasons for backing such revolutions but noted their severely damaging effect on east-west ties.
“After he came to office, Putin came to believe that the United States had an active and robust programme to overthrow his regime,” the former defence secretary said.
“And from that point on a switch went on in Putin’s mind that said: I’m no longer going to work with the west ... I don’t know the facts behind Putin’s belief that we actually had a programme to foment revolution in Russia but what counts is he believed it.”
BartenderElite
Verified User
Do you need a refresher on the meaning of the word "hostile"?
Zelenski fed by the Cold Warriors has already radically changed the nature of Uk/Russia relations
As I've said numerous times his now negotiating point of not joining NATO is too little too late
If he would have taken the German chancellor offer up - we might have avoided war
But he wouldn't even do that.
We wouldn't even talk to Putin about his "red lines" -more of the same
And I'm not just blaming Z. Our Cold Warriors ( Nuland/Rice/Kagan/McCain etc.) have been intent
on tilting Uk completely into the western sphere by weaponization and assurances to Kyiv
Zelenkski is "striving to be a democracy? " lol.. no he isn't -he hasn't paid any price for the political persecution of Poroshenko and now he's a west/media darling -he's completely free to purge anyone
in Ukraine by calling them a "Russian asset" - lol It's Hillary all over again
Ukraine is most defintely a threat to Russia thanks to the west's cold war games and militarization
Basically you reinforce my argument that the current situation is more about Putin's insecurities than the Russian people.
Apparently it was a pipe dream that russia would try to become a democracy but that wasn't unfounded. Most of east europe went that way.
you are heavily redacting to support your argument.
Nobody cares about "Russian democracy" in terms of east/west relations (realpolitik)
what matters is how NATO and Russia interact along with how the USA fomented a revolution to overthrow a pro-Russian president of Uk
You simply can't pick an event and say everything flowed from this or that. as the article said "it's a process"
~~
Perry said the decision reflected a contemptuous attitude among US officials towards the troubled former superpower.
“It wasn’t that we listened to their argument and said he don’t agree with that argument,” he said. “Basically the people I was arguing with when I tried to put the Russian point ... the response that I got was really: ‘Who cares what they think? They’re a third-rate power.’ And of course that point of view got across to the Russians as well. That was when we started sliding down that path.”
Perry pointed to in the poisoning of US-Russian relations was Washington DC’s support for pro-democracy demonstrators in the “colour revolutions” in former Soviet republics including Georgia and Ukraine. Perry agreed with the ethical reasons for backing such revolutions but noted their severely damaging effect on east-west ties.
“After he came to office, Putin came to believe that the United States had an active and robust programme to overthrow his regime,” the former defence secretary said.
“And from that point on a switch went on in Putin’s mind that said: I’m no longer going to work with the west
BartenderElite
Verified User
Do sovereign, independent nations not have the right to choose their alliances and decide their own national security?
Never heard of Poroshenko so I wiki'd him. Thanks.
Looks to me the history of Uk since at least 1991 is complicated. Lots of mistakes compounded on each other since then.
Almost as if history is repeating itself.
WW I was needless which was fought only because of alliances. Which led to:
WW I was never resolved properly causing WW II. Which led to:
The Soviet Union and the Cold War. Which led to:
The collapse of communism, then the Soviet Union: Which led to:
Collapse of the Soviet Union not resolved (although we thought it was). So much for the New World Order.
All because of egos, IMO, with innocent civilians bearing the brunt of the stupidity of politicians.
Last edited:
yep. gross mismangement, Cold War 2.0, add in some Putin paranoia
and what i call built in "Russiaphobia" by our State and intel agencies
"It's all a game until it blows up and somebody gets hurt"
I suppose a Trumper might view a threat against NATO as a peace offer to Ukraine.
On that subject, it's curious the number of Trumpers sympathetic to Russia right now. They would have been anything but five years ago when someone expressing such sentiments would have been seen as a "Commie" in their twisted lexicon of the time.
Althea
Althea told me...
The comparisons are too similar for comfort. Imagine if trump was re elected? We would have two deranged individuals plotting to take over the world.
Save for the fact that trump is basically a coward.
Althea
Althea told me...
He's an idiot. Putin was invading no matter what. He will now pay, and be expelled from all of Ukraine.
Whatever is left of it.
I don't think they're sympathetic to what Russia is doing. No one is advocating Uk surrender.
More lamenting about the failed foreign policy mistakes - and there were many.
And here we are.
It will take time, loss of life and destruction before this resolves itself in the relative short run.
In the long run?
Althea
Althea told me...
No doubt anatta believes that Mexico should annex Texas and half of the Southwest, as the U.S stole it. It's no different than Putin's actions based on what he views as 'Russian property'.
NATO is "hostile" to the idea of Russia imposing its will on other countries. To Putin-ites like anatta that's all the hostility you need.
Althea
Althea told me...
What a fucking moron he is. Putin already invaded Crimea, and had every intention of finishing the job. Ukraine was being armed because Putin was sending troops to Eastern Ukraine for years.
He had trump as an ally, but his second attempt to get him elected failed.
Airstrip One
Completely Effed
Bluffed how?
Airstrip One
Completely Effed
Which only makes logical sense if the second part of my post could actually be true.