Zelensky rejected peace offer days before Russian offensive – WSJ

anatta said:
you mean NATO imposing it's agenda on Ukraine
and yes having a hostile governemnt with advanced weapons on Russia's border is "all you need"
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That’s obviously not what was meant and even that isn’t a peace offer to Ukraine. Neither is the second part of your non-answer. Sorry, I realize you can’t help being lame.
 
martin said:
That’s obviously not what was meant and even that isn’t a peace offer to Ukraine. Neither is the second part of your non-answer. Sorry, I realize you can’t help being lame.
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you post simplistic tripe - not recognizing NATO expansion and US meddling in Ukraine elections/Euromaidan while deliberately tilting Kyiv pro-west
who said anything about a peace offer? the OP was about aborting the war using US and German security guarantee
But you stick with the inane, not even recognizing advanced weaponry on Uk border with a pro-west government is a red line.. you and Biden have that in common
 
anatta said:
massively long -see more at link.
WSJ puts in a lot of hawkish perspective, but it's a very good summation of events
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Thanks for the link. Fascinating article. Not sure how this war could have been prevented given Putin’s mentality about long ago borders and his disdain for western “decadence”.
The article reinforces my suspicion of Putin’s paranoia and insecurity.
 
anonymoose said:
Thanks for the link. Fascinating article. Not sure how this war could have been prevented given Putin’s mentality about long ago borders and his disdain for western “decadence”.
The article reinforces my suspicion of Putin’s paranoia and insecurity.
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the way to prevent war is always thru realpolitik.
Including negotiations in good faith and taking the other sides demands as real and valid
( which we never did for Russia after the USSR)

We played so many games,we lied so many times,we needlessly meddled in Ukraine (and the Yeltsin election)

Given our history of regime change ( and Biden is at it again) is Putin paranoid? or just wary?
I think he sees us for what we are. moralistic when it serves our purpose, ruthless when it does as well
without any concern for long term coexistence

My bottom line on all this is we got back what we sowed
Glad you found it informative "what a long strange trips it's been"
 
anatta said:
the way to prevent war is always thru realpolitik.
Including negotiations in good faith and taking the other sides demands as real and valid
( which we never did for Russia after the USSR)

We played so many games,we lied so many times,we needlessly meddled in Ukraine (and the Yeltsin election)

Given our history of regime change ( and Biden is at it again) is Putin paranoid? or just wary?
I think he sees us for what we are. moralistic when it serves our purpose, ruthless when it does as well
without any concern for long term coexistence

My bottom line on all this is we got back what we sowed
Glad you found it informative "what a long strange trips it's been"
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The bolded is astounding.

And you still deny that you're trying to make excuses for Putin?

Really?
 
BartenderElite said:
What kind of a response is that?

Someone can't talk about the reality & condemn what's going on unless they suit up & fight the actual war? Seriously?
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I seem to recall a few lefties have been making that an issue since the beginning.......did you take them to task for it?.......I think a couple of them actually thanked your post......
 
I have one question.....today the EU said it is considering further sanctions........why the fuck are there sanctions we didn't impose three weeks ago?.......
 
anatta said:
German chancellor Olaf Scholz had offered Volodymyr Zelensky a chance for peace just days before the launch of the Russian military offensive, but the Ukrainian president turned it down, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) has reported.

Scholz had made what the US outlet described as “one last push for a settlement between Moscow and Kiev” less than a week before the Russian forces were sent into Ukraine on February 24.

The chancellor told Zelensky in Munich on February 19 “that Ukraine should renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality as part of a wider European security deal between the West and Russia,” the paper writes. The daily also claims that “the pact would be signed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Biden, who would jointly guarantee Ukraine’s security.”

However, Zelensky rejected the offer to make the concession and avoid confrontation, saying that “[Russia’s President Vladimir] Putin couldn’t be trusted to uphold such an agreement and that most Ukrainians wanted to join NATO,” the WSJ reports, without revealing its sources for the information.

“His answer left German officials worried that the chances of peace were fading,” the report points out.

Scholz and Zelensky did meet on that day on the sidelines of the Munich Security Conference, at which each delivered an address.
https://www.rt.com/news/553213-zelensky-scholz-ukraine-peace/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/vladim...ineand-how-the-west-mishandled-it-11648826461
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This is ridiculous , the idea that anything would have stopped Russia aggression is crazy . They did what they were always going to do. Zelensky should in no way ever agree to what Russia wants. There was never a chance for piece with Russia without giving away their freedom and country.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
I seem to recall a few lefties have been making that an issue since the beginning.......did you take them to task for it?.......I think a couple of them actually thanked your post......
Click to expand...

How's about you link something from one of these "lefties"?

I'm supposed to take posters to task for something vague that you "seem to recall"?
 
BartenderElite said:
The bolded is astounding.

And you still deny that you're trying to make excuses for Putin?

Really?
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You forgot to bold this:
anatta said:
the way to prevent war is always thru realpolitik.
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It really doesn't matter if Putin is a madman, crazy, immoral, war criminal, whatever. He's in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world (I think). He doesn't consider Uk a sovereign country, or even a country but part of Russia. THAT'S HOW HE THINKS. That's what we were and are dealing with. That's reality. And the U.S. and NATO weren't dealing in that reality.
 
anonymoose said:
You forgot to bold this:

It really doesn't matter if Putin is a madman, crazy, immoral, war criminal, whatever. He's in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world (I think). He doesn't consider Uk a sovereign country, or even a country but part of Russia. THAT'S HOW HE THINKS. That's what we were and are dealing with. That's reality. And the U.S. and NATO weren't dealing in that reality.
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You can recognize his motivation, without bowing to the irrationality of it.
 
anonymoose said:
You forgot to bold this:

It really doesn't matter if Putin is a madman, crazy, immoral, war criminal, whatever. He's in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world (I think). He doesn't consider Uk a sovereign country, or even a country but part of Russia. THAT'S HOW HE THINKS. That's what we were and are dealing with. That's reality. And the U.S. and NATO weren't dealing in that reality.
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yes his reality is like: "perception is reality"
But he's a rational actor - he can be dealt with, but should have been taken seriously before as well
 
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