Here's what I don't understand...

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

The part where White Europeans played was in destroying the Ottoman Empire after WWI. It had complete control over the Middle East and N. Africa, and maintained order. Carving up the modern states was a disaster. Of course, the same held true by destroying the German and Austria-Hungarian Empires with regard to their spheres of influence (from which we got WWII and ongoing uncontained ethnic strife in central and eastern Europe). WWI also gave birth to the Cold War destablizing Russia so that the Bolsheviks were able to take power (whether or not the monarcy or the republic were to have alternately prevailed).

So your basic view is what? That we should do nothing, because we fucked things up in the past already? I mean, we can have a philosophical "what if" debate over past history if you like, does it help to eliminate the radical Islamic ideology of discrimination against women, gays, and people of different faith? I can see where this questionable view of past history may suffice to make you feel smarter than others, or more enlightened in some way, but it really does nothing to address the present day problems we are discussing here.

It seems to me, simply doing nothing out of fear we'll fuck up again, is not going to eradicate radical Islamic fundamentalism or stop the atrocities associated with it. Maineman's idiotic ideas are actually more proactive than yours! Care4All's idea of planting daisies and hoping for universal love, are more likely than yours! If you can't contribute a reasonable suggestion, why bother posting at all?

 

[Minister of Truth]

So your basic view is what? That we should do nothing, because we fucked things up in the past already? I mean, we can have a philosophical "what if" debate over past history if you like, does it help to eliminate the radical Islamic ideology of discrimination against women, gays, and people of different faith? I can see where this questionable view of past history may suffice to make you feel smarter than others, or more enlightened in some way, but it really does nothing to address the present day problems we are discussing here.

It seems to me, simply doing nothing out of fear we'll fuck up again, is not going to eradicate radical Islamic fundamentalism or stop the atrocities associated with it. Maineman's idiotic ideas are actually more proactive than yours! Care4All's idea of planting daisies and hoping for universal love, are more likely than yours! If you can't contribute a reasonable suggestion, why bother posting at all?

No, what the past shows is that stability is key. We can't re-create the Ottoman Empire, but we can work towards seeing that power is centralized throughout the Islamic world (no more of this spreading Democracy, Wilsonian bullshit).

This is why ousting Saddam was a bad move. He was a useful idiot.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

No, what the past shows is that stability is key. We can't re-create the Ottoman Empire, but we can work towards seeing that power is centralized throughout the Islamic world (no more of this spreading Democracy, Wilsonian bullshit).

This is why ousting Saddam was a bad move. He was a useful idiot.

Stability of WHAT? The current radical Islamic regimes who foster the hate, racism, sexism, and religious intolerance? How the hell will that HELP the situation? This isn't about "centralized power" at all, it's about the fundamental religious beliefs espoused by radical extremists in the Islamic world! As long as we allow that to persist, nothing we do is going to have an effect on the barbaric behavior currently going on!

What we have is a very large contingent of people over there, who RELIGIOUSLY believe they are MANDATED to discriminate against women, gays and people who don't share their strict Islamic philosophy! In many ways, it can be likened in many respects to Nazism. The only fundamental difference is, this is a RELIGIOUS philosophy, these people believe they can't get into heaven unless they believe it and practice it! How do you deal with that? By allowing it to "centralize" itself? I don't get where you're coming from.

 

[maineman]

Really? So money is a motivating factor in your personal faith? If someone paid you enough, you could abandon your religious beliefs? Because that is precisely what you are saying here. Their economic conditions have absolutely nothing to do with their religious convictions! The discrimination against women, gays, and those of different religion, are not caused by their economic state! Their brutal disregard for personal freedom and human rights, are not the result of poor economic conditions! These things are a part of their fundamental religious beliefs, just like you believe in God and the Bible!

Improving their economic situation would only make them wealthy racist, sexist, religious, and homophobic bigots! Besides, I don't think economic condition is a factor anyway, Osama Bin Laden comes from one of the wealthiest families in the region.

moving a young man or woman from islam to radical islam is a short journey if the individual feels trapped without hope by his circumstances. For you and your hate filled sycophants to continue to hold up OBL as somehow some sort of proof that economic inequity is NOT an important factor in the radicalizing of the arab street is pure foolishness.

 

[maineman]

Stability of WHAT? The current radical Islamic regimes who foster the hate, racism, sexism, and religious intolerance? How the hell will that HELP the situation? This isn't about "centralized power" at all, it's about the fundamental religious beliefs espoused by radical extremists in the Islamic world! As long as we allow that to persist, nothing we do is going to have an effect on the barbaric behavior currently going on!

What we have is a very large contingent of people over there, who RELIGIOUSLY believe they are MANDATED to discriminate against women, gays and people who don't share their strict Islamic philosophy! In many ways, it can be likened in many respects to Nazism. The only fundamental difference is, this is a RELIGIOUS philosophy, these people believe they can't get into heaven unless they believe it and practice it! How do you deal with that? By allowing it to "centralize" itself? I don't get where you're coming from.

do you honestly think that discrimination against gays and women is an islamic phenomenon?

 

[Care4all]

it is naive and ignorant to blame economic inequality for violence...there are plenty of poor people and countries who do not engage in AQ like violence. AQ is violent because they believe in their jihad, a jihad to conquer the world for islam and allah's sake. it is an idea that has nothing to do with economics. think of the american over in afghanistan fighting for AQ...he did not have any economic problems...bin ladin? comes from a wealthy family and when he became a radical (he thought more pure muslim) he was absolutely not hurting for money.

But it could very well be extremely naive not to consider it yurt! why limit yourself to only one means in rectifying the problem? poverty is a proven cause of civil unrest that leads to radicals and radical means being accepted...and not just this case....but many.

Arabs in israel love their lives there....they have work and stability for their families.....

arabs in america love it here and are not radical, they have work, money, stability and peace for their families....

i don't think you or dixie or anyone should dismiss this as one of the means in reducing the recruiting power of radical jihad.

care/jd

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

moving a young man or woman from islam to radical islam is a short journey if the individual feels trapped without hope by his circumstances. For you and your hate filled sycophants to continue to hold up OBL as somehow some sort of proof that economic inequity is NOT an important factor in the radicalizing of the arab street is pure foolishness.

Note you failed to answer my question. Would money motivate you to abandon your religious beliefs? Yes or no? From their perspective, the "journey" from Islam to radical Islam is a matter of how much religious conviction you have, and whether you are willing to suffer the consequences of not buying in to the radicalism. You act as if these people operate in the same open and free society we operate in, that they somehow have a choice in what they believe and who they will follow. If we were talking about inner-city Chicago youth joining gangs, you may have some kind of a point here, but we're not! This has absolutely NOTHING to do with economic plight, or "feeling trapped without hope" and to presume it does, is what is foolish.

 

[Care4all]

yo maineman!

We got about 14 inches of snow and it is still snowing, how about you?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Stability of WHAT? The current radical Islamic regimes who foster the hate, racism, sexism, and religious intolerance? How the hell will that HELP the situation? This isn't about "centralized power" at all, it's about the fundamental religious beliefs espoused by radical extremists in the Islamic world! As long as we allow that to persist, nothing we do is going to have an effect on the barbaric behavior currently going on!

What we have is a very large contingent of people over there, who RELIGIOUSLY believe they are MANDATED to discriminate against women, gays and people who don't share their strict Islamic philosophy! In many ways, it can be likened in many respects to Nazism. The only fundamental difference is, this is a RELIGIOUS philosophy, these people believe they can't get into heaven unless they believe it and practice it! How do you deal with that? By allowing it to "centralize" itself? I don't get where you're coming from.

Dixie, how can a person like you, who is so completely clueless about Islam and the historical conditions of the middle east come up with a solution to the problem other than "kill them all"?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

do you honestly think that discrimination against gays and women is an islamic phenomenon?

That isn't my argument. You are now attempting to point to others who exhibit bad behavior, to justify allowing bad behavior. It seems to me, slavery and discrimination against blacks was not an "American" phenomenon, was it? Does that mean Americans shouldn't have stood to fight against those abhorrent practices?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Note you failed to answer my question. Would money motivate you to abandon your religious beliefs? Yes or no? From their perspective, the "journey" from Islam to radical Islam is a matter of how much religious conviction you have, and whether you are willing to suffer the consequences of not buying in to the radicalism. You act as if these people operate in the same open and free society we operate in, that they somehow have a choice in what they believe and who they will follow. If we were talking about inner-city Chicago youth joining gangs, you may have some kind of a point here, but we're not! This has absolutely NOTHING to do with economic plight, or "feeling trapped without hope" and to presume it does, is what is foolish.

You do have some level of credibility here Dixie as a reactionary extremist yourself you should have a clue about your fellow reactionary extremist. I really don't see but a dimes bit of difference between a southern reactionary like you and an Islamic reactionary. Some slight cultural differences but the psychological make up between you and them is nearly indetical as far as I can see.

 

[maineman]

Note you failed to answer my question. Would money motivate you to abandon your religious beliefs? Yes or no? From their perspective, the "journey" from Islam to radical Islam is a matter of how much religious conviction you have, and whether you are willing to suffer the consequences of not buying in to the radicalism. You act as if these people operate in the same open and free society we operate in, that they somehow have a choice in what they believe and who they will follow. If we were talking about inner-city Chicago youth joining gangs, you may have some kind of a point here, but we're not! This has absolutely NOTHING to do with economic plight, or "feeling trapped without hope" and to presume it does, is what is foolish.

Islam, as a religion, does not demand its adherents fly planes into buildings... neither does Christianity. MY faith is what it is... and my economic situation, thankfully, has never been such that I have been prone to listen to harsher voices.

The fact remains, the economic inequity in the arab world has made radical islam more attractive to people who have no other hope.

 

[maineman]

That isn't my argument. You are now attempting to point to others who exhibit bad behavior, to justify allowing bad behavior. It seems to me, slavery and discrimination against blacks was not an "American" phenomenon, was it? Does that mean Americans shouldn't have stood to fight against those abhorrent practices?

Americans should not have to spill THEIR blood trying to make different cultures accept OUR value systems.

To suggest that we took our focus off of AQ, invaded, conquered, and occupied Iraq and angered the entire middle east because Saddam did not allow gays and women equal rights is an assinine revision of history.

 

[maineman]

yo maineman!

We got about 14 inches of snow and it is still snowing, how about you?

I had two feet in my dooryard... and it is still coming down.

I cannot WAIT until 2011 when my wife and I will move to Merida, Mexico!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie, how can a person like you, who is so completely clueless about Islam and the historical conditions of the middle east come up with a solution to the problem other than "kill them all"?

Well first of all, judging by the responses in this thread, I appear to be much more clued in than the average pinhead about what is going on. All I have seen here is absolute denial, and complete idiocy on a grand scale. I don't profess to have all the answers, and I have not advocated "killing them all" in this thread or any thread, that I am aware of. I am just realistic enough to understand, some people are going to have to be killed, I can see no other solution to the problem here.

Let's recap... We have a radical religiously-based ideology which has permeated the governments and schools of an entire region of the world. These people are brainwashed from an early age, to believe in this discriminatory racist and sexist ideology which stifles personal freedom. Not only do they believe in it, they believe they must adhere to it or face eternal damnation of their souls! It is a RELIGIOUS belief they hold sacred! Now... How do you suppose we remedy that problem without killing anyone? I don't see how any solution which has been suggested here will work. I certainly don't believe sitting on our hands and pretending the problem doesn't exist, or remaining complacent, is going to work.

Present me with some logic here Motthead! Tell me how we go about eliminating the oppressive discrimination against women, gays, and people who don't adhere to radical Islamic faith? Tell me how we go about changing people's radical religious viewpoints by throwing some money at them and helping their economic conditions? Explain how sitting here blaming the past transgressions of Europeans, or Bush and America, is going to fundamentally change the religiously instilled mindset of radical Islam?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Americans should not have to spill THEIR blood trying to make different cultures accept OUR value systems.

To suggest that we took our focus off of AQ, invaded, conquered, and occupied Iraq and angered the entire middle east because Saddam did not allow gays and women equal rights is an assinine revision of history.

So we should just let them beat and torture women and treat them like subhuman pieces of property because it's none of our business? Is that it? We should get out of their way, and allow them to continue fostering these beliefs in the generations to come, because it's not our concern how they live... is that what you believe?

I've not mentioned Iraq here, I don't know what compels you to... other than, it's a convenient diversion from the subject at hand, and helps to support your excuses for moral cowardice.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Islam, as a religion, does not demand its adherents fly planes into buildings... neither does Christianity. MY faith is what it is... and my economic situation, thankfully, has never been such that I have been prone to listen to harsher voices.

The fact remains, the economic inequity in the arab world has made radical islam more attractive to people who have no other hope.

You still haven't answered my question. Would money change your religious perspective? Would better economic conditions change what you fundamentally believe as your personal faith? This is the argument you are presenting for the radical Islamics... that their economic conditions are what drives their radical religious views. I don't believe that is the case, and I don't think you've made a successful argument for it. In fact, I think it is patently absurd to assume such a thing.

You continue to say stupid shit, like "more attractive to people" ...as if these people have some kind of fucking choice! This is a religious teaching! People are religiously CONVICTED to follow these tenants of Islam, at the behest of their Mullahs and Clerics! In many cases, if they DON'T do it, they are executed! So, it's not really a matter of choice, these people have no damn choice! Personal FREEDOM doesn't exist! Your viewpoint is solely based on the idiotic concept that these people are like us, they have the propensity to pick and choose what to follow and how to follow, and they DON'T!

 

[maineman]

You still haven't answered my question. Would money change your religious perspective? Would better economic conditions change what you fundamentally believe as your personal faith? This is the argument you are presenting for the radical Islamics... that their economic conditions are what drives their radical religious views. I don't believe that is the case, and I don't think you've made a successful argument for it. In fact, I think it is patently absurd to assume such a thing.

You continue to say stupid shit, like "more attractive to people" ...as if these people have some kind of fucking choice! This is a religious teaching! People are religiously CONVICTED to follow these tenants of Islam, at the behest of their Mullahs and Clerics! In many cases, if they DON'T do it, they are executed! So, it's not really a matter of choice, these people have no damn choice! Personal FREEDOM doesn't exist! Your viewpoint is solely based on the idiotic concept that these people are like us, they have the propensity to pick and choose what to follow and how to follow, and they DON'T!

I did answer your question. You just don't like my answer. And really, I could give a shit what you "believe" as to the motivations of islamic extremists. You have proven time and again that you are completely clueless about islam in general and radical islam in specific.

Arabs and muslims DO have a a choice...if they did not, then, by your reckoning, ALL muslims would be radical extremists and we know for a fact that they are not.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

I did answer your question. You just don't like my answer. And really, I could give a shit what you "believe" as to the motivations of islamic extremists. You have proven time and again that you are completely clueless about islam in general and radical islam in specific.

Arabs and muslims DO have a a choice...if they did not, then, by your reckoning, ALL muslims would be radical extremists and we know for a fact that they are not.

Bottom line: Ideologies Matter

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I did answer your question. You just don't like my answer. And really, I could give a shit what you "believe" as to the motivations of islamic extremists. You have proven time and again that you are completely clueless about islam in general and radical islam in specific.

Arabs and muslims DO have a a choice...if they did not, then, by your reckoning, ALL muslims would be radical extremists and we know for a fact that they are not.

No, you didn't answer my question. I asked if money or economic condition would change your religious views and convictions... you said "it is what it is" and that's not an answer to the question.

This is not a debate of my personal knowledge and understanding of Islam, and it certainly doesn't matter what I believe. An argument and basis for a viewpoint must be grounded in reality and based on logical belief.

Arabs and Muslims in certain parts of that region, do not have a choice, if they did, by your reckoning, the women are perfectly fine with being treated as subhuman pieces of property and sending their sons off to blow themselves up in the name of Allah. I don't believe that to be the case.