Here's what I don't understand...

[blackascoal]

This from the greatest prison nation in human history that not only profits from slave/prisoners but also uses racism to populate the system. A nation where slavery is still legal and where the slave/prisoners of today look a lot like the slaves of the past.

From the nation that slaughtered and nearly eradicated an entire race of indigenous people.

From the nation that enslaved and overtly oppressed a different race of people for nearly 400 hundred years and where that same oppressed people have only been relatively free for 42 years, and where even to this day unarmed black men are openly murdered by racist police forces who pay no penalty for their crimes.

THIS from a nation that just mass-murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people .. who happen to be the exact same people that some are fucking whining about in this thread .. We mass-murdered them for their resources and geo-political power. We blew them apart with the Mother Of All Bombs, shot them, tortured them, and melted the skin off their children while they were still alive with White Phosphorous weapons .,. AND, goddamit, we send billions of dollars to Israel so they can do the same thing to Palestinians. The US and Israel .. the most dangerous nations on planet earth.

Religion, ALL religion is bullshit, including Christianity and Judaism. It's for stupid people who point fingers at non-believers while all the time they themselves represent what any sane person would recognize as the epitome of evil.

 

[Care4all]

So you are okay with allowing the radical Islamic movement to continue to flourish and spread, because you believe it is better for women to be treated as subhuman subservient slaves, than to be liberated? Or maybe it's that you don't have to live like that, so it doesn't effect you personally, and you can't really muster any concern for others? It's not your problem, is it, Care?

I don't give a damn if you believe me or not, and I don't give a damn if you want to use the Iraq war to continue your justification for turning a blind eye to what is going on! You have to ultimately live with what you think, not me! I just can't understand how liberals, even the ones who proclaim to "CARE FOR ALL" can be so indifferent to what this radical Islamic movement is all about! You don't really CARE FOR ALL, you care for CARE!

Where am I on the Sudanese? The same place I always am on genocide and atrocities against humanity! I think we have a moral obligation to get involved, and if it means blowing things up, that's what it means! I honestly don't know how many Muslims need to be killed, I think it depends on who is killed and what message we send collectively as a people about our tolerance for such behavior! This whole damn country should be outraged over what is happening and what is being allowed in the name of Allah! We should ALL be taking up arms to stop this ideology and bury it forever, but it seems, about half of us want to lolly-gag around and make excuses for why we simply can't do anything about it except live with it! That makes me want to puke!

Yes, Care 4 ALL Dixie....not just those that I agree with....

I think there is definately a Jihad movement out there that is dangerous....to the enth degree.

I just do not agree that going to war with every nation out there to remediate these Jihadists will do anything but bring on Armageddon....the movement of the beast.

I believe that there are other ways to diminish terrorism, and as others have said, it is to get to the ROOT of the problems that are making life on earth, not worth living for, for them, and address that...

Alot of it has to do with Royalty, and the minions not sharing in the wealth of their countries, near keeping them in the Dark Ages, and abject poverty imo...not necessarily their religion, because there are millions upon millions, if not billions of Muslims all over the world that coexist with a westernized or more advanced, technological society, like here in the USA, where their Muslim Faith/religion does not lead to becoming a terrorist.

Care

 

[Onceler]

Dixie has always been of the school of thought that you can just "kill all the terrorists," even after the lessons of the past 5+ years.

In short, he's a complete fucking idiot.

 

[Care4all]

Dixie has always been of the school of thought that you can just "kill all the terrorists," even after the lessons of the past 5+ years.

In short, he's a complete fucking idiot.

Well, I think he honestly believes that killing them all, no matter how long it takes, no matter the cost, both financially and with human lives, is the way to irradicate terrorism....

Yes, you would think that he would have a change of view on that by now...imho!

Care

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Who has equated terrorism to the civil rights movement, or said "we need to understand their plight?"

Give me a name.

Okay Shit-for-brains, read the thread. You have a litany of posts here from maineman, mott and BAC to choose from. Two are saying we should essentially "understand their plight" while the other is inferring we have no right to fight this evil because we condoned the same thing with treatment of blacks.

It's like I said, there is some kind of 'disconnect' with the thinking from the left. The atrocities against humans, the discrimination against women, homosexuals, and anyone not of their religious bent, is not the result of their economic condition, nor will addressing their economic condition remedy that fundamental problem. It is a convenient liberal excuse to defend moral cowardice and continue to remain indifferent. Decent human beings should be ashamed of themselves to cling to such "reasons" not to act.

I disagree with maineman, that every Muslim including American citizen would have to be killed, that is patently absurd. Radical Islamic fundamentalism is largely isolated to the middle east and Arab world, and it involves a minority of Muslims worldwide. The overwhelming majority of Muslims do not subscribe to the 5th century thinking regarding treatment of women or personal freedom. This is a radical religious movement, it involves Muslims, not ALL Muslims. But... Even IF it did, we have a moral obligation to humanity, to defend the basic human rights of all, and to fight this evil until it is defeated.

Again... What I don't understand, is how can someone who is a "liberal" who claims to support human rights, claims to support women's rights, claims to support gay rights, claims to support freedom of choice, can sit on their hands and soak up these pathetic and flimsy excuses not to act. Is it selfishness? Is it that you don't feel compelled because it doesn't involve you personally? Is it because you are racist and bigoted toward people from other countries? What is the fundamental reason for you people taking the stand you've taken, to refuse to act, to fight tooth and nail against those who do feel compelled to fight? Someone please answer that for me, because I just don't understand it.

 

[Care4all]

Weaning off the M/E's Oil and Natural Gas tit would be another measure that could be taken that would help us, and more than likely, help them as well....because it will force them in to becoming a more advanced, economic, society for everyone, vs the few in Royalty.

 

[Damocles]

the grinding desperation and hopelessness of chronic economic inequity makes violence an attractive option, imho. Without it, Al Qaeda would not have an audience.

Except those who are "very religious".

As long as they teach that it is "martyrdom" to kill yourself while you harm others, there would be people willing to do it even if they were rich.

While they may be fewer, they would still exist.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

it is naive and ignorant to blame economic inequality for violence...there are plenty of poor people and countries who do not engage in AQ like violence. AQ is violent because they believe in their jihad, a jihad to conquer the world for islam and allah's sake. it is an idea that has nothing to do with economics. think of the american over in afghanistan fighting for AQ...he did not have any economic problems...bin ladin? comes from a wealthy family and when he became a radical (he thought more pure muslim) he was absolutely not hurting for money.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Let Us Be Clear on Al-Qaeda’s Goals
Edward S. Walker & Wyche Fowler, Special to Arab News

WASHINGTON, 17 November 2003 — At midnight on Saturday, suicide bombers careened into a residential area in Riyadh, killing 17 and wounding over 100 others, mainly women and children. The perpetrators were from Al-Qaeda or one of its affiliates. The victims were largely Arab, not Israeli or Western. The timing was deliberate, as always, and struck just as families were crowding the streets to attend Ramadan dinners that often last into the early morning. The target of the attack was America’s long-time ally Saudi Arabia. The goal is unchanged: Drive out all Western and foreign influences in order to weaken the country economically, undermine the Saudi government and ultimately establish a radical, Islamic state that has more in common with the 14th century than the 21st.


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=35210&d=17&m=11&y=2003

 

[maineman]

Except those who are "very religious".

As long as they teach that it is "martyrdom" to kill yourself while you harm others, there would be people willing to do it even if they were rich.

While they may be fewer, they would still exist.

I never suggested that they would disappear...only that they would not have a fertile source for recruiting and that they would be severely marginalized. We will NEVER get rid of ALL the weirdos in this world... Dixie and his ilk, for example, will ALWAYS be able to spew their lies and their hatred regardless of how small their peanut gallery.

My suggestion is, that, if we dealt with the economic inequity in the islamic world whereby shieks placed on thrones by european powers horde the outlandish profits from a natural resource that should belong to all the citizens and leaving their "subjects" to live in abject poverty, we would significantly marginalize the attractiveness of islamic extremists. A steady job and a good paycheck tend to be moderating influences.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

osama bin ladin was/is wealthy

 

[Damocles]

I never suggested that they would disappear...only that they would not have a fertile source for recruiting and that they would be severely marginalized. We will NEVER get rid of ALL the weirdos in this world... Dixie and his ilk, for example, will ALWAYS be able to spew their lies and their hatred regardless of how small their peanut gallery.

My suggestion is, that, if we dealt with the economic inequity in the islamic world whereby shieks placed on thrones by european powers horde the outlandish profits from a natural resource that should belong to all the citizens and leaving their "subjects" to live in abject poverty, we would significantly marginalize the attractiveness of islamic extremists. A steady job and a good paycheck tend to be moderating influences.

It isn't our job to make the Middle East better, it is our job to get off the foreign energy teat.

Freedom that is "given" is never understood or cherished as strongly as freedom earned.

 

[Don Quixote]

It isn't our job to make the Middle East better, it is our job to get off the foreign energy teat.

Freedom that is "given" is never understood or cherished as strongly as freedom earned.

freedom is never free, it must be fought for or at the very least struggled for

literacy is one of the most helpful routes to freedom

an educated electorate is a freer electorate

ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free - the whole truth, neither a censored truth nor a partial truth

get the facts, facts are lampposts along the path of life and guide us

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

My suggestion is, that, if we dealt with the economic inequity in the islamic world whereby shieks placed on thrones by european powers horde the outlandish profits from a natural resource that should belong to all the citizens and leaving their "subjects" to live in abject poverty, we would significantly marginalize the attractiveness of islamic extremists.

Onzie... you asked who was saying it? Here it is yet again! The poor downtrodden people of the region are the victims of white European oppression through the installment of tyrant rulers, and we must try to understand their plight. Pretty much what I said on the previous page.

It's somehow easier for liberals to believe white Europeans are responsible for radical Islamic beliefs, than the radical fundamentalists who espouse those beliefs. Nevertheless, nothing that we can ever do from an economic standpoint, will change the viewpoint of radical Islam. This is not about their economic situation, it is about their fundamental beliefs.

Also, I notice how the debate breaks away into a discussion of how we stop the violence of the terrorist world. This is not exactly about the violence, that's part of it, but even if the violence weren't present, you still have the deplorable way women are treated, you still have blatant discrimination against homosexuals, you still have people being 'righteously' executed in the name of Allah. Violence against the western world is only a portion of the problem. Perhaps it is the one we are most concerned with because it effects us most directly, but I think the problem is much deeper.

 

[maineman]

It isn't our job to make the Middle East better, it is our job to get off the foreign energy teat.

Freedom that is "given" is never understood or cherished as strongly as freedom earned.

I have never suggested that we "give" anyone freedom...I have never suggested that we "understand the plight" of the downtrodden of the region. I merely suggest that when western governments place sheiks in power that turn around and sell them oil, keep the profits for themselves, and keep the residents of their donated kingdoms empoverished, we ought not to be all that fucking surprised when those residents rise up and fly planes into our buildings... and we ought to maybe consider that somehow trying to "unfuck" that situation might well be in our best interest.

 

[maineman]

Nevertheless, nothing that we can ever do from an economic standpoint, will change the viewpoint of radical Islam. This is not about their economic situation, it is about their fundamental beliefs.

and if their economic situation were improved, the number of them who would continue to hold those radical beliefs would radically diminish.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

and if their economic situation were improved, the number of them who would continue to hold those radical beliefs would radically diminish.

i notice you keep running away from the fact OBL is loaded

it is a highly naive world view to think money is going to alter their religious viewpoints, as if wealthy muslims do not share ideals with AQ...

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

and if their economic situation were improved, the number of them who would continue to hold those radical beliefs would radically diminish.

Really? So money is a motivating factor in your personal faith? If someone paid you enough, you could abandon your religious beliefs? Because that is precisely what you are saying here. Their economic conditions have absolutely nothing to do with their religious convictions! The discrimination against women, gays, and those of different religion, are not caused by their economic state! Their brutal disregard for personal freedom and human rights, are not the result of poor economic conditions! These things are a part of their fundamental religious beliefs, just like you believe in God and the Bible!

Improving their economic situation would only make them wealthy racist, sexist, religious, and homophobic bigots! Besides, I don't think economic condition is a factor anyway, Osama Bin Laden comes from one of the wealthiest families in the region.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

freedom is never free, it must be fought for or at the very least struggled for

literacy is one of the most helpful routes to freedom

an educated electorate is a freer electorate

ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free - the whole truth, neither a censored truth nor a partial truth

get the facts, facts are lampposts along the path of life and guide us

Oh these are some nice rosy platitudes Don, and I am sure they make you feel better. The problem is, in that region of the world, the "education" is controlled by the religious fanatics, and from the time you are a wee tot, you are taught to follow the Qaran and be a 'good' radical Muslim! This includes blatant discrimination against women, treating them as subhuman subservient possessions of men, and hatred for gays and people who don't subscribe to the radical tenants of Islam. It also includes "educating" the masses on the evils of western culture and defiance against The Great Satan, which is us! You are literally taught to give your life in martyrdom in order to spread this message worldwide. Votes? Electorate? Those terms are foreign to these people, they are like any other radical ideology, and do not allow freedoms such as this.

But we continue to fight a battle here in this country, about how to deal with this situation! Those on the left will continue to prop up flimsy and phony excuses and explanations, to avoid making a moral stand against this ideology. It's just easier for us to be complete moral cowards when it comes to standing up for human rights and the "truth" you speak of. We had rather find inane reasons for NOT acting, for NOT getting involved, for continuing to bury our heads in the sand and pretend this is some "economic situation" that we are responsible for!

 

[Minister of Truth]

Onzie... you asked who was saying it? Here it is yet again! The poor downtrodden people of the region are the victims of white European oppression through the installment of tyrant rulers, and we must try to understand their plight. Pretty much what I said on the previous page.

It's somehow easier for liberals to believe white Europeans are responsible for radical Islamic beliefs, than the radical fundamentalists who espouse those beliefs. Nevertheless, nothing that we can ever do from an economic standpoint, will change the viewpoint of radical Islam. This is not about their economic situation, it is about their fundamental beliefs.

Also, I notice how the debate breaks away into a discussion of how we stop the violence of the terrorist world. This is not exactly about the violence, that's part of it, but even if the violence weren't present, you still have the deplorable way women are treated, you still have blatant discrimination against homosexuals, you still have people being 'righteously' executed in the name of Allah. Violence against the western world is only a portion of the problem. Perhaps it is the one we are most concerned with because it effects us most directly, but I think the problem is much deeper.

The part where White Europeans played was in destroying the Ottoman Empire after WWI. It had complete control over the Middle East and N. Africa, and maintained order. Carving up the modern states was a disaster. Of course, the same held true by destroying the German and Austria-Hungarian Empires with regard to their spheres of influence (from which we got WWII and ongoing uncontained ethnic strife in central and eastern Europe). WWI also gave birth to the Cold War destablizing Russia so that the Bolsheviks were able to take power (whether or not the monarcy or the republic were to have alternately prevailed).