Zelensky rejected peace offer days before Russian offensive – WSJ

[anatta]

I stand corrected re SEATO.
Cuban missile crisis?
1. We dismantled our nukes in turkey.
2. We did not invade Cuba.

we didnt have to invade Cuba ( except Bay of Pigs) - but we would have gone after Russia -JFK said himself.
it was an intolerable situation

It's even worse with Uk/Russia. hypersonic missiles take minutes to reach Moscow,
and you can see how powerful the Uk army is because of NATO weapons
Those are existential threats to Russia

 

[anatta]

First I've heard the German chancellor is in running things in Russia.

more likely the first time you had heard that Zelensky turned down a peace and security agreement

 

[moon]

That seems to have ended as of February 24. you think Canada or G.B. would be our ally if we turned their cities to rubble?

The increased intensity of the civil war precipitated Russia's actions.

 

[anatta]

Go fuck yourself, Putin lover. Yes, it's Ukraines fault. Fuck you. I guess you care about atrocities only when it's White People that are being killed.

incoherant rant from someone unable to comprehend geopolitics

You still cheering on Libya? I bet you are

 

[Joe Capitalist]

What an unreal mischaracterization.

And again - it's just to protect Putin. No one believes that "they're all bad guys."

Don't these far right wing Putin dick-suckers make you want to vomit?

 

[anatta]

The increased intensity of the civil war precipitated Russia's actions.

i dont think so -been that way for years in Donbas
Putin has to own the war - the problem is NATO is not an org that wants peace with Russia
It wants to dominate and treat Russia as non-legit

Which is the reason for making Ukraine a defacto NATO state - to jam up Putin "because we can"

 

[Concart]

incoherant rant from someone unable to comprehend geopolitics

You still cheering on Libya? I bet you are

No, But you only support a guy like Putin, cocksucker.

 

[moon]

Don't these far right wing Putin dick-suckers make you want to vomit?

ANOTHER fellatio-deprived attention-seeker seeks similar.



Haw, haw................................haw.

 

[Moosakofsky]

Uk IS in a civil war -Donbas.
It cannot be overstated the east is pro-Russia

Karkiv might be an exception, but the LDNR have been in a long protacted war against Kyiv

Then let Russia support LDNR. If Uk were in a large scale civil war there wouldn’t be the fierce resistance they’re showing against Russia. This ISN’T a civil war now. Can’t you see that?
Uk is in a life or death struggle for their sovereignty. Russia is not.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

German chancellor Olaf Scholz had offered Volodymyr Zelensky a chance for peace just days before the launch of the Russian military offensive, but the Ukrainian president turned it down, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) has reported.

Scholz had made what the US outlet described as “one last push for a settlement between Moscow and Kiev” less than a week before the Russian forces were sent into Ukraine on February 24.

The chancellor told Zelensky in Munich on February 19 “that Ukraine should renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality as part of a wider European security deal between the West and Russia,” the paper writes. The daily also claims that “the pact would be signed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Biden, who would jointly guarantee Ukraine’s security.”

However, Zelensky rejected the offer to make the concession and avoid confrontation, saying that “[Russia’s President Vladimir] Putin couldn’t be trusted to uphold such an agreement and that most Ukrainians wanted to join NATO,” the WSJ reports, without revealing its sources for the information.

“His answer left German officials worried that the chances of peace were fading,” the report points out.

Scholz and Zelensky did meet on that day on the sidelines of the Munich Security Conference, at which each delivered an address.
https://www.rt.com/news/553213-zelensky-scholz-ukraine-peace/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/vladim...ineand-how-the-west-mishandled-it-11648826461

Translation: The Ukrainians refused to be blackmailed by Putin's thugs and now all Russians can blame the Ukrainians for the rapes and mass murders of Ukrainian children.

Fuck you, Dookie. I hope your neighbors realize what an unAmerican piece of shit you are and remind you that assholes like you are disliked.

 

[martin]

more likely the first time you had heard that Zelensky turned down a peace and security agreement

Correct if it was a real offer. But if you know of such an offer from Putin show us.

 

[anatta]

No, But you only support a guy like Putin, cocksucker.

ha ha ha
what happened to your gung ho? got up and went?
BAC and myself told you what would happen to Libya
but you were too busy cheering on Obama/NATO

you are 100% unqualified to participate in this discussion

 

[anatta]

Correct. But if you know of such an offer from Putin show us.

you can start with the "red lines" letters sent by Lavrov. to Biden

Russia will act if Nato countries cross Ukraine ‘red lines’, Putin says
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-countries-cross-ukraine-red-lines-putin-says
In his most expansive comments on the crisis yet, the Russian president on Tuesday complained of Nato’s historical expansion to Russia’s borders and warned that substantial Nato military support for Ukraine would cross a “red line” for Russia.

 

[Moosakofsky]

we didnt have to invade Cuba ( except Bay of Pigs) - but we would have gone after Russia -JFK said himself.
it was an intolerable situation

It's even worse with Uk/Russia. hypersonic missiles take minutes to reach Moscow,
and you can see how powerful the Uk army is because of NATO weapons
Those are existential threats to Russia

If NATO isn’t invading Moscow or Russia now what circumstances would it take to do so?
There is no threat from the West.
It’s Putin feeling personally threatened being surrounded by democracies to his west.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

If NATO isn’t invading Moscow or Russia now what circumstances would it take to do so?
There is no threat from the West.
It’s Putin feeling personally threatened being surrounded by democracies to his west.

Agreed. Putin doesn't fear NATO per se, he fears democracy. That's why he loved Pedo Don so much; a fellow authoritarian.

 

[BartenderElite]

you can start with the "red lines" letters sent by Lavrov. to Biden

Russia will act if Nato countries cross Ukraine ‘red lines’, Putin says
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-countries-cross-ukraine-red-lines-putin-says
In his most expansive comments on the crisis yet, the Russian president on Tuesday complained of Nato’s historical expansion to Russia’s borders and warned that substantial Nato military support for Ukraine would cross a “red line” for Russia.

Why does Putin get to decide who an independent & sovereign nation chooses for its allies?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Why does Putin get to decide who an independent & sovereign nation chooses for its allies?

Because Dookie thinks he should.

 

[anatta]

If NATO isn’t invading Moscow or Russia now what circumstances would it take to do so?
There is no threat from the West.
It’s Putin feeling personally threatened being surrounded by democracies to his west.

NATO has armed and trained Ukraine extensively. That is a threat right there
It's a hostile military alliance - it has been creeping closer and closer to Russia desite all promises not to

What threat was the Cuban missile crisis? It was Russian missiles on our doorstep
Now it's hypersonic missiles, a defacto NATO army on it's border and talk of yet more NATO expansion

These very terms make it an existential threat. again reverse the process and think if Russia was arming Mexico - not making it an actual client state but a defacto Russian enclave

This is how leaders have to evaluate security needs

And NATO doesn't have to attack Russia - it's using Uk as a pawn in it's proxy war to war agaisnt Russia

None of this excuses the war. But it explains it, and this has to be taken into consideration
with any peace accords
Even Zelensky recognizes Ukraine being part of NATO is intolerable for Russia
The problem for peace is Uk is essentially a NATO state already

 

[Moosakofsky]

NATO has armed and trained Ukraine extensively. That is a threat right there

I see. So Uk being armed was going to invade Russia.

It's a hostile military alliance - it has been creeping closer and closer to Russia desite all promises not to

I wouldn't call it hostile. I'd call it what it is - a defensive alliance. In your argument's defense , it was stupid to promise not to expand, then do. Untrustworthy.
Better to have been truthful saying, yes, we are going to expand but pose no threat.

What threat was the Cuban missile crisis? It was Russian missiles on our doorstep

Uh, yeah.

Now it's hypersonic missiles, a defacto NATO army on it's border and talk of yet more NATO expansion

If you were a small country neighboring Russia and seeing what Russia is doing to Uk, would you want to be part of NATO? Be honest.

These very terms make it an existential threat. again reverse the process and think if Russia was arming Mexico - not making it an actual client state but a defacto Russian enclave

OK, let's go further. Let's say all of Central America had an alliance protecting itself from American aggression. You think we'd invade Mexico??? And validate their reason for having an alliance??? How stupid would that be? No, we'd shore up our defenses on the border.

And NATO doesn't have to attack Russia - it's using Uk as a pawn in it's proxy war to war agaisnt Russia

Jeezuz Christ, anatta! Are you now saying Uk invaded Russia - in Ukraine ??!?

The problem for peace is Uk is essentially a NATO state already

Especially so since Feb. 24.
So in summary, the West miscalculated Putin.
Putin miscalculated the West's response and the will of the Ukraines to resist (with NATO's support of course).
So here we are.
Now what?

 

[anatta]

I see. So Uk being armed was going to invade Russia. I wouldn't call it hostile. I'd call it what it is - a defensive alliance. In your argument's defense , it was stupid to promise not to expand, then do. Untrustworthy.
Better to have been truthful saying, yes, we are going to expand but pose no threat.

how can a hostile military alliance that has expanded -when it said it would not- and turned Uk from a neutral buffer state into a defacto NATO state not be a threat?

Uh, yeah.If you were a small country neighboring Russia and seeing what Russia is doing to Uk, would you want to be part of NATO? Be honest.

NATO expansion precludes the invasion. NATO expansion in the Baltics isn't asmuch of a big deal because they dont have sizable armies -Uk does. Ukraine being part of NATO, with a hostile governemnt in Kyiv, fed by western weapons is casus belli.. Recall Ukraine had already threatened Sevastopol and Crimea militarization which caused the annexation.
Since then NATO has greatly militarized Ukraine..put it together

OK, let's go further. Let's say all of Central America had an alliance protecting itself from American aggression. You think we'd invade Mexico??? And validate their reason for having an alliance??? How stupid would that be? No, we'd shore up our defenses on the border.

you missed the part where (in your scenarios) Russia was funneling advanced weapons as well to those countries..damn right we would invade -we've done soon much less threats

Jeezuz Christ, anatta! Are you now saying Uk invaded Russia - in Ukraine ??!?

dont be silly .no

Especially so since Feb. 24.
So in summary, the West miscalculated Putin.
Putin miscalculated the West's response and the will of the Ukraines to resist (with NATO's support of course).
So here we are.
Now what?

damn good question.. all I know is any peace has to change the dynamics or it can happen again