The Greatest Story Ever Sold, The God Who Wasn't There.

[Cancel5]

The "You can't prove he DOESNT exist therefore you have to tolerate my stupid beliefs while I perpetrate injustice" argument is about the most retarded one ever made. I think the time for respecting such beliefs in others is LONG past.

Did humans ever really respect the beliefs of others? or do we merely tolerate them?

 

[Cancel5]

Glad that you actually got to the point instead of emoting false outrage.

How do I KNOW the fallacy of religion .. because I've studied it .. probably know more christian history than most christians .. and because I have a brain .. don't rely on "faith" .. which is all religion is , faith. Not fact, not logic, not even common sense.

How do you KNOW Santa Claus doesn't exist?

Have you ever not seen him?

Have you been to the North Pole?

That's your argument brother?

Christianity, as is all religion, a collections of religious myths and superstitions.
The story of Jesus is the story of Hercules.

Was Hercules real?

Feel free to mock me.

The story of Jesus is the story of Krishna, Mithra, Zoaster, Osris and all the other god men at the time. Our godman is better than your god man.

One just has to read the History of God, in Islam, Christianity and the Jews to know that there were so many different Christian religions at the start and only through killing and defamation was the orthodox version able to survive! Islam has changed from its original version as has the Jewish religion. They all have different sects that don't agree.

Jesus will eventually go the way Zeus, and Hercules and all the others have gone! People will outgrow him as their superhero and require something new! The Jews did it and Christianity came about and Jesus replaced Moses. Islam came as reported to be the fulfillment of both Moses and Jesus in Mohammed. Joseph Smith came and stated everyone had it wrong and their church and the commission of modern prophets is where it is at!

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

The "You can't prove he DOESNT exist therefore you have to tolerate my stupid beliefs while I perpetrate injustice" argument is about the most retarded one ever made. I think the time for respecting such beliefs in others is LONG past.

great attitude... so we should all simply be intolerant spoiled little brats who throw fits every time someone has a different opinion than us? If someone dares to believe something we don't believe we should simply mock them, be as intolerant as possible? Essentially act like three year olds throwing a tantrum?

THAT is the dumbest fucking attitude to hold.

 

[ib1yysguy]

great attitude... so we should all simply be intolerant spoiled little brats who throw fits every time someone has a different opinion than us? If someone dares to believe something we don't believe we should simply mock them, be as intolerant as possible? Essentially act like three year olds throwing a tantrum?

THAT is the dumbest fucking attitude to hold.

I think we should respect other's opinions as long as they can justify their beliefs or opinions. We have given religious people an unwarranted pass on this, which would be required of them in any other area of inquiry. For some reason we think it's okay and respectable to believe in something without any justification and to allow them to influence our political landscape and poison the wells of intellect with their inanity. I for one do not stand for it, and I would hope you wouldn't either.

There is a world of difference between a legitimate disagreement and speaking to someone about the beliefs for which they cannot be convinced otherwise. For example, if you ask any atheist "What would it take to prove to you God exists?" that atheist could easily give you a number of circumstances under which he would be convinced of God's presence. On the other hand, if you ask as I have a religious individual what you could do to convince them that God does not exist, you will likely hear that there is absolutely nothing you could do to shake their faith. This is the very definition of closed-mindedness and frankly it should not be tolerated nearly as well as it has been.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I think we should respect other's opinions as long as they can justify their beliefs or opinions. We have given religious people an unwarranted pass on this, which would be required of them in any other area of inquiry. For some reason we think it's okay and respectable to believe in something without any justification and to allow them to influence our political landscape and poison the wells of intellect with their inanity. I for one do not stand for it, and I would hope you wouldn't either.

There is a world of difference between a legitimate disagreement and speaking to someone about the beliefs for which they cannot be convinced otherwise. For example, if you ask any atheist "What would it take to prove to you God exists?" that atheist could easily give you a number of circumstances under which he would be convinced of God's presence. On the other hand, if you ask as I have a religious individual what you could do to convince them that God does not exist, you will likely hear that there is absolutely nothing you could do to shake their faith. This is the very definition of closed-mindedness and frankly it should not be tolerated nearly as well as it has been.

sigh... and just who gets to decide whether a BELIEF is 'justifiable'? A belief is an OPINION. As long as one party does not try to force their OPINION upon someone else, they are fine by me.

EVERY single law that we have on our books if formed by the BELIEFS/morals/opinions of the populace.

I think you need to look up the definition of belief... you seem confused.

As for the 'does God exist' yes, there are many things that can be listed by an atheist for which they would HAVE to acknowledge Gods existence.... for example if GOD showed up etc...

But for those that BELIEVE in God, there is NO WAY to prove a negative, therefore there is by definition nothing you could do to prove God does not exist.

Also, to say that there is nothing that can be done to shake the faith of the religious is painting with a rather broad brush. Many people fall away from their faith.

The funnies part is your last point... it is not closed minded of someone to listen to your argument and simply not agree with you. It is closed minded if they refuse to listen. It is the hostility towards those that believe in some religious sect or another that should not be tolerated. There seems to be a great deal of that intolerance among the far left. Just as on the far right the reverse holds true.

 

[Cancel5]

I would believe in a supernatural being if an amputee could regrow his leg miraculously.

 

[ib1yysguy]

sigh... and just who gets to decide whether a BELIEF is 'justifiable'? A belief is an OPINION. As long as one party does not try to force their OPINION upon someone else, they are fine by me.

EVERY single law that we have on our books if formed by the BELIEFS/morals/opinions of the populace.

I think you need to look up the definition of belief... you seem confused.

As for the 'does God exist' yes, there are many things that can be listed by an atheist for which they would HAVE to acknowledge Gods existence.... for example if GOD showed up etc...

But for those that BELIEVE in God, there is NO WAY to prove a negative, therefore there is by definition nothing you could do to prove God does not exist.

Also, to say that there is nothing that can be done to shake the faith of the religious is painting with a rather broad brush. Many people fall away from their faith.

The funnies part is your last point... it is not closed minded of someone to listen to your argument and simply not agree with you. It is closed minded if they refuse to listen. It is the hostility towards those that believe in some religious sect or another that should not be tolerated. There seems to be a great deal of that intolerance among the far left. Just as on the far right the reverse holds true.

Of course, everybody decides for themselves what is a valid belief. One of the issues in question here is the position of respect we collectively give to religious beliefs automatically and uncritically. I think people should be more outspokenly critical of religious beliefs and if their beliefs are valid they will be able to easily stand up to criticism when subjected to it. I know as well as they do they cannot hope to stand up to a fair conversation, which is why they try so hard to stifle it before it even begins.

 

[leaningright]

I see I missed something yesterday. Let me just say for the record that none of this offends me other than the attitude that someone who believes in God, Christ and the message of the Bible (like me) is consider to be less intelligent and less enlightened that someone who does not. Other than that this has been a great discussion.

 

[blackascoal]

The story of Jesus is the story of Krishna, Mithra, Zoaster, Osris and all the other god men at the time. Our godman is better than your god man.

One just has to read the History of God, in Islam, Christianity and the Jews to know that there were so many different Christian religions at the start and only through killing and defamation was the orthodox version able to survive! Islam has changed from its original version as has the Jewish religion. They all have different sects that don't agree.

Jesus will eventually go the way Zeus, and Hercules and all the others have gone! People will outgrow him as their superhero and require something new! The Jews did it and Christianity came about and Jesus replaced Moses. Islam came as reported to be the fulfillment of both Moses and Jesus in Mohammed. Joseph Smith came and stated everyone had it wrong and their church and the commission of modern prophets is where it is at!

That's absolutely true .. every word of it.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Of course, everybody decides for themselves what is a valid belief. One of the issues in question here is the position of respect we collectively give to religious beliefs automatically and uncritically. I think people should be more outspokenly critical of religious beliefs and if their beliefs are valid they will be able to easily stand up to criticism when subjected to it. I know as well as they do they cannot hope to stand up to a fair conversation, which is why they try so hard to stifle it before it even begins.

I think this is where we disagree. I don't believe we give respect automatically and most definitely not uncritically. That said, I suppose it is quite subjective in terms of 'how much' criticism etc... is given as what seems like a lot of criticism to me may not be enough for you.

I also disagree with your assertation that their beliefs cannot stand up to a 'fair conversation'. Hell, I am agnostic and I could certainly defend most religions with reason. Sure, you can pick apart most of the stories for inaccuracies (which easily happens when the stories are written from the perspective of the author... hell, look at the differences in the various books written by the 12 disciples... the Catholic Church only printed four... yet all 12 shared their experiences... where are the other 8?) or for extreme similarities to other religions beliefs (either past or present). But the stories are designed to convey core values, belief in a higher power etc... that I don't think are assailable. Some stories may have been 'left out' by one religion and included in another. (Just look at the various Islamic or Christian sects and the differences despite the same basic core beliefs)

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I see I missed something yesterday. Let me just say for the record that none of this offends me other than the attitude that someone who believes in God, Christ and the message of the Bible (like me) is consider to be less intelligent and less enlightened that someone who does not. Other than that this has been a great discussion.

That is the point that annoys the crap out of me as well....

 

[blackascoal]

I see I missed something yesterday. Let me just say for the record that none of this offends me other than the attitude that someone who believes in God, Christ and the message of the Bible (like me) is consider to be less intelligent and less enlightened that someone who does not. Other than that this has been a great discussion.

Welcome to the world of religion my brother.

Religion by its very nature is divisive.

My God is bigger than your God .. and if you don't believe in my God, you're dumb .. or evil.

The tide has turned and this is blowback.

 

[Onceler]

Welcome to the world of religion my brother.

Religion by its very nature is divisive.

My God is bigger than your God .. and if you don't believe in my God, you're dumb .. or evil.

The tide has turned and this is blowback.

I don't think religion by its very nature is divisive. It's always the loudest voices in any religion that create that impression, but they are, imo, a very small minority.

For most people, faith or religion or spirituality (whatever you want to call it), is a pretty private, personal thing. I actually don't know anyone in my personal circle who tries to push anything, or feels superior, or who doesn't respect others beliefs 100%. I think that is true of most - the "quiet majority," as it were.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I don't think religion by its very nature is divisive. It's always the loudest voices in any religion that create that impression, but they are, imo, a very small minority.

For most people, faith or religion or spirituality (whatever you want to call it), is a pretty private, personal thing. I actually don't know anyone in my personal circle who tries to push anything, or feels superior, or who doesn't respect others beliefs 100%. I think that is true of most - the "quiet majority," as it were.

I agree completely.

 

[Lowaicue]

And your evangelicals and your missionaries? Have you ever heard these people? Have you ever seen them at work? Have you any idea how many Amazonian tribes have been destroyed, how many children have their own parent's culture denied?

I don't think religion by its very nature is divisive. It's always the loudest voices in any religion that create that impression, but they are, imo, a very small minority.

For most people, faith or religion or spirituality (whatever you want to call it), is a pretty private, personal thing. I actually don't know anyone in my personal circle who tries to push anything, or feels superior, or who doesn't respect others beliefs 100%. I think that is true of most - the "quiet majority," as it were.

 

[Onceler]

And your evangelicals and your missionaries? Have you ever heard these people? Have you ever seen them at work? Have you any idea how many Amazonian tribes have been destroyed, how many children have their own parent's culture denied?

Well, they are not my evangelicals or missionaries, to start with. And they are part of the "loud minority" I referred to.

In a historical sense, organized religion has definitely been very divisive & destructive; it is responsible for wars & oppression throughout the ages.

However, that has more to do w/ the vocal minority imposing an inordinate amount of will onto the populace than it does with religion being somehow inherently divisive. My only point is that, for most people, it is a private thing, and not a source of divisiveness.

 

[Lowaicue]

I can go with that.

Well, they are not my evangelicals or missionaries, to start with. And they are part of the "loud minority" I referred to.

In a historical sense, organized religion has definitely been very divisive & destructive; it is responsible for wars & oppression throughout the ages.

However, that has more to do w/ the vocal minority imposing an inordinate amount of will onto the populace than it does with religion being somehow inherently divisive. My only point is that, for most people, it is a private thing, and not a source of divisiveness.

 

[blackascoal]

I don't think religion by its very nature is divisive. It's always the loudest voices in any religion that create that impression, but they are, imo, a very small minority.

For most people, faith or religion or spirituality (whatever you want to call it), is a pretty private, personal thing. I actually don't know anyone in my personal circle who tries to push anything, or feels superior, or who doesn't respect others beliefs 100%. I think that is true of most - the "quiet majority," as it were.

If YOUR God is the only real God, then as I said, religion by its very nature s divisive .. andthat divisiveness has killed more people than wars over anything else.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

If YOUR God is the only real God, then as I said, religion by its very nature s divisive .. andthat divisiveness has killed more people than wars over anything else.

and as HE said, it is the small minority of radicals that typically instigate these wars. The vast majority of religious people want to be left alone to believe as they choose, share their beliefs with those who agree, and leave others to beleive as they choose.

So by nature, it is not the RELIGION that is divisive. It is the extremists within the group.

Very similar to politics. The vast majority of this country is centrist. They want both parties to work together for the betterment of the country as a whole.

yet it is the hard right and hard left nuts that keep this nation so polarized.... because they tend to be the most vocal.... once again the vocal minority causes the bulk of the problems for the majority.... mainly due to the majority showing indifference through their relative silence.

 

[blackascoal]

and as HE said, it is the small minority of radicals that typically instigate these wars. The vast majority of religious people want to be left alone to believe as they choose, share their beliefs with those who agree, and leave others to beleive as they choose.

So by nature, it is not the RELIGION that is divisive. It is the extremists within the group.

Very similar to politics. The vast majority of this country is centrist. They want both parties to work together for the betterment of the country as a whole.

yet it is the hard right and hard left nuts that keep this nation so polarized.... because they tend to be the most vocal.... once again the vocal minority causes the bulk of the problems for the majority.... mainly due to the majority showing indifference through their relative silence.

The christian God is a jealous God and has no tolerance for anyother belief.

Muslims clain "the one God" .. Jews claim another God .. and the only thing that seperates them is their God because they are both the very same semitic people.

Religion, by it's very nature is divisive. It divides people by belief systems.

Spirituality, which is not religion, doesn't care what religion or label you call yourself, only the character of your heart.