poor refiners crying about 15% ethanol fuel

Damn Yankee said:
This debate is about ethanol, which requires more energy to produce than it yields. Instead of using it for transportation natural gas and fuel oil should be used instead. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
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perhaps because it's a ridiculous claim.....why should we use something irreplaceable instead of something replaceable?......
 
Damn Yankee said:
Because we use petroleum to make the fertilizer and fuel the machines required in ethanol production, stalker.
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why would we use petroleum to fuel the machines required in ethanol production?......biofuel is better and cheaper.....
Originally Posted by Damn Yankee View Post
Every gallon of ethanol you pump in your car requires more petroleum from OPEC and increases the cost of corn, which increase the cost of beef, milk, and most food....
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again, that isn't true....we can make ethanol without a drop of petroleum and it does not increase the costs of beef, milk or most food......
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
why would we use petroleum to fuel the machines required in ethanol production?......biofuel is better and cheaper.....


again, that isn't true....we can make ethanol without a drop of petroleum and it does not increase the costs of beef, milk or most food......
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Sure we can use 1.7 gallons of ethanol to make a gallon of ethanol. But that's retarded.
131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS.
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Damn Yankee said:
Sure we can use 1.7 gallons of ethanol to make a gallon of ethanol. But that's retarded.
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we've covered this already.....your numbers include the power needed to extract ethanol from the corn which can, and likely is, provided by electricity or natural gas, not by ethanol....even the fuel for the tractors in the field is likely biodiesel, not ethanol......so no, we aren't using 1.7 gallons of ethanol to make a gallon of ethanol.......

do you ignore the power required to turn a barrel of crude oil into something that a car can operate?.......how many gallons of crude oil does it take to make a gallon of gasoline?........

this comes from the head of a state corn grower's association, so I don't know if you can take it at face value, but then, your numbers came from oil companies so go figure....

"As far as energy balance goes, it takes twice as much energy to create a gallon of gasoline than it does to create a gallon of ethanol. It also takes 8 to 10 times more water to refine gasoline than it does ethanol."

Mike GeskePresident, Missouri Corn Growers Association
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yes, this consumes energy
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but so does this....
oil_rig_california_offshore_calm_sea.jpg


this consumes energy....
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but so does this.....
oil_tanker_1.jpg



this consumes energy....
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but so does this....
oil%20refinery%201.jpg
 
another thing you fail to consider.....before ethanol, corn was selling for $2 a bushel and the government was subsidizing it by buying it from farmers for $3 so they wouldn't go broke.....today corn is selling for $4 and the government doesn't have to pay farmers.......

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PostmodernProphet said:
we've covered this already.....your numbers include the power needed to extract ethanol from the corn which can, and likely is, provided by electricity or natural gas, not by ethanol....even the fuel for the tractors in the field is likely biodiesel, not ethanol......so no, we aren't using 1.7 gallons of ethanol to make a gallon of ethanol.......

do you ignore the power required to turn a barrel of crude oil into something that a car can operate?.......how many gallons of crude oil does it take to make a gallon of gasoline?........

this comes from the head of a state corn grower's association, so I don't know if you can take it at face value, but then, your numbers came from oil companies so go figure....
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Electricity and especially natural gas can be used in cars directly.

It doesn't matter how much crude it takes to make a gallon of gas since crude is simply mined out of the earth.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
another thing you fail to consider.....before ethanol, corn was selling for $2 a bushel and the government was subsidizing it by buying it from farmers for $3 so they wouldn't go broke.....today corn is selling for $4 and the government doesn't have to pay farmers.......
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The government shouldn't subsidize anything.
 
Ethanol is enormously expensive to produce, and it requires oil to produce, meaning it does nothing to reduce petroleum consumption as well as being costly. You are denying that this matters.

Its the same reason that fuel cells for cars have been a joke thus far, because they are expensive to produce, and require oil to produce. Even the wind turbines for wind farms require petroleum to manufacture.
 
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