poor refiners crying about 15% ethanol fuel

Damn Yankee said:
Every gallon of ethanol you pump in your car requires more petroleum from OPEC and increases the cost of corn, which increase the cost of beef, milk, and most food, which takes money from Iowans and Kansans.
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That is inaccurate. Since only a small percentage of electricity is generated by anything imported from OPEC. The natural gas used to make electricity is mostly from the USA.
 
Superfreak said:
DO you agree or disagree? Is it wise to use a less efficient source?
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I agree it makes more sense to use a more efficient source, in fact I believe I was the first to suggest it.....that doesn't excuse you from making comments that have no relation to fact.....


AGAIN.... as I HAVE addressed your mash comment... SOME livestock will eat the mash, but not all will. The only dumbfuck here is you. You are embarassed that your 1% number is complete bullshit, so you continue to try and spin away.
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I have addressed this issue all that's required.....if you put mash in front of a cow, it will eat it.....if you put fact in front of you, it goes to waste.....continue to live in ignorance, spread as little of it around as possible....
 
Dixie said:
No on is addressing the fact that 15% Ethanol blends have not been extensively tested. We don't yet know, that Ethanol has no long-term catastrophic effects on engines, we have not tested them with 15% blends. We do know, an internal combustion engine will not run for long on pure Ethanol. We don't know what unintended effects burning Ethanol over long periods of time, might create... are we just going to cross that bridge when we come to it? When everyone's car starts to chug and die, maybe we'll have another 'cash for clunkers' program, and get everyone an electric scooter?
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dude, people have been driving on ethanol for twenty years.......is the average car still in service after twenty years?.....
 
Damn Yankee said:
my link shows that over 20% of electricity is generated by fuel oil and propane,
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you did it again.....your link shows that 20% of electricity is generated by natural gas and .2% is generated by fuel oil......to present that as "20% is generated by natural gas and fuel oil" is an outight lie......you ought to be ashamed of yourself....
 
Schadenfreude said:
do you think that the oil companies have our best interests at heart, not i

Oil refineries sue EPA over ethanol plan​

Associated Press/AP Online

By KEN THOMAS WASHINGTON - A ruling by the Obama administration allowing the sale of gasoline containing 15 percent ethanol is running into legal hurdles from trade groups opposing the plan.

The National Petrochemical and Refiners Association sued the Environmental Protection Agency on Monday over the decision to allow the sale of gasoline containing higher blends of corn-based ethanol, the second major group to protest the ruling.

The Obama administration said in October that gas stations could start selling the ethanol blend for vehicles built since the 2007 model year, increasing it from the current blend of 10 percent ethanol. The decision has been criticized by boosters of ethanol who say it doesn't go far enough and by engine manufacturers who contend it could damage engines in vehicles, boats, snowmobiles and outdoor power equipment such as lawnmowers and chainsaws.

The refiners group asked a federal appeals court to overturn the decision, arguing that the EPA does not have the authority under the Clean Air Act to approve a plan for fuels used in some engines but not others. The trade association also said EPA based its decision on new data submitted shortly before the ruling, failing to give the public a chance to review it.

Charles T. Drevna, the NPRA's president, said Monday the EPA had "acted unlawfully in its rush to allow a 50 percent increase in the amount of ethanol in gasoline without adequate testing and without following proper procedures." His group was joined in the lawsuit by the International Liquid Terminals Association and the Western States Petroleum Association.

EPA spokesman Brendan Gilfillan said the agency had not reviewed the lawsuit. The EPA "based its decision on allowing E15 in newer cars - and will base whatever decision we make on model year 2001-2006 cars - on a comprehensive review of extensive testing data and on the law," he said.

"We are confident it will withstand legal challenge."

The EPA is expected to consider the higher ethanol blends for vehicles built from 2001-2006 this year.

EPA has said a congressional mandate requiring increased ethanol cannot be met without the higher blends. Congress has required refiners to blend 36 billion gallons of biofuels, mostly ethanol, in automotive fuel by 2022.

Last month, trade groups for the auto industry and engine manufacturers sued EPA over the ruling, citing concerns it would lead to motorists unknowingly filling up their older cars and trucks with E15 and damaging the vehicles' engines. Opponents say the problem, called misfueling, could intensify if E15 fuels are cheaper than more conventional blends, prompting owners of older vehicles to use the fuel despite future engine problems.

The ethanol industry says the EPA should have approved the ethanol blend for more vehicles. They say there is enough evidence to show that a 15 percent ethanol blend in motor fuel will not harm engine performance.

Matt Hartwig, a spokesman for the Renewable Fuels Association, said the lawsuits "only serve to delay the inevitable" and that increased ethanol use "is the only proven and abundantly available tool to reduce our reliance on imported oil today."

The lawsuits have been filed in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.

A service of YellowBrix, Inc. .
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So buy one of these:

..."Ford on Friday unveiled the Ford Focus Electric, the company's first-ever all-electric passenger car..."

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2375430,00.asp
 
PostmodernProphet said:
dude, people have been driving on ethanol for twenty years.......is the average car still in service after twenty years?.....
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People have been driving on a 10% ethanol blend, not pure ethanol and not 15% ethanol. And it is not recommended for any vehicle made prior to 1990, or any carburetor-type engine. There have been countless reports of people destroying their older vehicles with it, ruining boat motors, etc. If you burned pure ethanol in your engine, it would melt every gasket you have, and it wouldn't take long.

PMP, I am shocked that YOU are an advocate of this left-wing lunacy. This is one of the liberals most cockamamie ideas, right up there with global warming... in fact, I think that's where it evolved from... the same idiots!
 
Dixie said:
PMP, I am shocked that YOU are an advocate of this left-wing lunacy. This is one of the liberals most cockamamie ideas, right up there with global warming... in fact, I think that's where it evolved from... the same idiots!
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lol....you think ethanol is left winged lunacy?.......perhaps in a world where "conservatives" are supposed to be automatically opposed to everything a liberal wants?......I want this country to be independent of all foreign sources of energy.....I also want this country to be independent from the influence of a half dozen multinational oil conglomerates.......I want there to be a thousand sources of energy produced by a thousand small American companies.......if you don't think that's "conservative" then you don't know what "conservative" is..........

There has been research on ethanol.....that's why they tell you not to use stronger than E10 in older cars.....that's why they tell you to use nothing stronger than E15 in newer cars.......but, you can easily convert your vehicle to run E85, as they did thirty years ago in Brazil and millions of miles later the vehicles have turned into piles of rust, because that's what happens to most cars after thirty years.....so don't give me any bullshit about "research".......

I grew up in Iowa......we raised corn and soybeans.......today, when you drive across Iowa it's hard to get out of sight of either a wind farm, a bio-diesel plant or an ethanol plant.....and people in Iowa are a whole lot better off then they were twenty years ago.....and THAT is conservativism.....
 
Dixie said:
People have been driving on a 10% ethanol blend, not pure ethanol and not 15% ethanol. And it is not recommended for any vehicle made prior to 1990, or any carburetor-type engine. There have been countless reports of people destroying their older vehicles with it, ruining boat motors, etc. If you burned pure ethanol in your engine, it would melt every gasket you have, and it wouldn't take long.

PMP, I am shocked that YOU are an advocate of this left-wing lunacy. This is one of the liberals most cockamamie ideas, right up there with global warming... in fact, I think that's where it evolved from... the same idiots!
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I can vouch for older cars. Use lots of gas stabilizer if you can't find an ethanol free station and do not use gas line anti-freeze as it just adds to the problem.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
you did it again.....your link shows that 20% of electricity is generated by natural gas and .2% is generated by fuel oil......to present that as "20% is generated by natural gas and fuel oil" is an outight lie......you ought to be ashamed of yourself....
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Actually it shows 0.7% generated by fuel oil, not that that matters to the point that I made. Why are you getting so emotional about this?
 
Damn Yankee said:
Actually it shows 0.7% generated by fuel oil, not that that matters to the point that I made. Why are you getting so emotional about this?
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emotional?......a better question would be, why did you try to sneak the same lie past twice?.....did you think we might have gotten dumber the second time through?.....
 
Damn Yankee said:
It's not a lie. 20% of electricity is now made with fuels that are now used for motive transportation.
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?????.....don't drag this out......your argument was stupid enough the first time around.......hardly any fuel oil is used to create electricity, hardly any natural gas is used to fuel transportation

we can use electricity cheaply produced to create fuel for more expensive transportation power.....

to pretend this isn't true makes you look foolish.......what is your motive?......do you feel there is some underlying conservative to defend Exxon's oil profits?...just because you don't like liberals does not mean you have to walk blindly into the light of a burning oil refractory.....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
?????.....don't drag this out......your argument was stupid enough the first time around.......hardly any fuel oil is used to create electricity, hardly any natural gas is used to fuel transportation

we can use electricity cheaply produced to create fuel for more expensive transportation power.....

to pretend this isn't true makes you look foolish.......what is your motive?......do you feel there is some underlying conservative to defend Exxon's oil profits?...just because you don't like liberals does not mean you have to walk blindly into the light of a burning oil refractory.....
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This debate is about ethanol, which requires more energy to produce than it yields. Instead of using it for transportation natural gas and fuel oil should be used instead. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
 
Damn Yankee said:
This debate is about ethanol, which requires more energy to produce than it yields. Instead of using it for transportation natural gas and fuel oil should be used instead. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
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You are conveniently ignoring that you talked about putting money in OPEC's pockets.

Nice backpedalling.
 
Damn Yankee said:
We buy natural gas from OPEC? Nice stalking. :lol:
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Did I say we buy natural gas from OPEC?

You posted "Every gallon of ethanol you pump in your car requires more petroleum from OPEC and increases the cost of corn, which increase the cost of beef, milk, and most food, which takes money from Iowans and Kansans"

Now, unless the electricity used to produce the ethanol is part of the tiny percentage of petroleum generated electricty, your statement is blatantly false.



I guess its easier to call me a stalker than to actually debate a point.
 
Because we use petroleum to make the fertilizer and fuel the machines required in ethanol production, stalker.
 
Damn Yankee said:
Because we use petroleum to make the fertilizer and fuel the machines required in ethanol production, stalker.
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Yeah, thats what you meant. :palm:

So if no one makes ethanol, those fields will be unused and empty?
 
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