OPINION:Waterboarding is Not Unconstitutional

Just one little questionette, my dear Trixie. Who the hell do you think you are?

Well, I think I am me, LowIQ... who do you think YOU are? I hope you think you are YOU... a subpar loser liberal who hasn't got a clue....but maybe you think you are someone else, like maybe you think you are someone who's opinions and viewpoints matter one whit to me?
 
Well, I think I am me, LowIQ... who do you think YOU are? I hope you think you are YOU... a subpar loser liberal who hasn't got a clue....but maybe you think you are someone else, like maybe you think you are someone who's opinions and viewpoints matter one whit to me?

As far as I am aware you are an American. As an American you value your sovereignty just as I, as a Brit, value our sovereignty and just as anyone else from any other country value theirs.
OK so far?
Right. So can we agree that sovereignty is sacrosanct and that to ignore another nation’s sovereignty by illegaly entering their country is tantamount to invasion and is illegal. I doubt that even you could disagree with that. Good.
So, by entering Pakistan, unannounced, with no prior or current permission you were acting illegally.
Next point. What proof did your people have that the man they were sent to kill, (yes they were) actually was Osama bin Laden? Did they request proof? Fingerprint? No. They killed an unarmed, elderly man with a beard who might or might not, at the time, have been Osama bin Laden.
Susequent DNA checks proved their case, but upon entering a foreign country they had no proof. They were on a murder mission.
So you (your nation) broke the international law.
Keep reading, dear boy.
I am not saddened by the fact that OBL is no more, indeed I celebrated the event like most sane people (not as the yanks did… but there are few sane there).
There are two things to be resolved.
1. America broke the law on several counts and should be made to answer for that.
2. America killed Osama bin Laden and they should be applauded for that.
So when I see and hear gung ho brain deads like your goodself, Trix, my view of your nation takes yet another step down into the abyss of violence and arrogance where once there was a hill of rightful pride.
It is, without a doubt, the duty of all good Americans, indeed all good people, to ensure that people like you do not prosper so that America can once more be worthy of its name (ref Mr. Ap Meryck)
 
I have yet to personally meet anybody who went out in the streets to celebrate the Osama death. It just seems all fabricated. Somebody called some group somewhere that put that crap together. It had to be a young group, did you see those crowds? Maybe something like the "Young Republicans" or something like that all lefty...

Of course I have no evidence, but it just seemed weird. Did it seem weird to anybody else? There were crowds of people even before the announcement, and they all seemed quite young.
 
As far as I am aware you are an American. As an American you value your sovereignty just as I, as a Brit, value our sovereignty and just as anyone else from any other country value theirs.
OK so far?
Right. So can we agree that sovereignty is sacrosanct and that to ignore another nation’s sovereignty by illegaly entering their country is tantamount to invasion and is illegal. I doubt that even you could disagree with that. Good.
So, by entering Pakistan, unannounced, with no prior or current permission you were acting illegally.
Next point. What proof did your people have that the man they were sent to kill, (yes they were) actually was Osama bin Laden? Did they request proof? Fingerprint? No. They killed an unarmed, elderly man with a beard who might or might not, at the time, have been Osama bin Laden.
Susequent DNA checks proved their case, but upon entering a foreign country they had no proof. They were on a murder mission.
So you (your nation) broke the international law.
Keep reading, dear boy.
I am not saddened by the fact that OBL is no more, indeed I celebrated the event like most sane people (not as the yanks did… but there are few sane there).
There are two things to be resolved.
1. America broke the law on several counts and should be made to answer for that.
2. America killed Osama bin Laden and they should be applauded for that.
So when I see and hear gung ho brain deads like your goodself, Trix, my view of your nation takes yet another step down into the abyss of violence and arrogance where once there was a hill of rightful pride.
It is, without a doubt, the duty of all good Americans, indeed all good people, to ensure that people like you do not prosper so that America can once more be worthy of its name (ref Mr. Ap Meryck)


Interesting read http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05967

"The US Attorney-General has told the BBC that bin Laden's surrender would have been accepted if offered, but that the protection of the Navy Seals who carried out the raid was uppermost in their minds.51
The US has had a criminal case open against bin Laden since the Manhattan Federal District Court’s June 1998 indictment. According to the 9/11 Commission Report, this indictment related to a plan the CIA had at one stage to capture bin Laden and turn him over for trial, either in the US or in an Arab country.52 A US Presidential Decision Directive, PDD-39, from June 1995, stated that “When terrorists wanted for violation of U.S. law are at large overseas, their return for prosecution shall be a matter of the highest priority.” If extradition procedures were unavailable or put aside, the United States could seek the local country’s assistance in a rendition, secretly putting the fugitive in a plane back to America or some third country for trial.53
8
Some possible implications
Many of the questions around bin Laden’s killing may only be resolved if the US releases the instructions given to the US Navy Seals and clarifies what efforts were made in the course of the military operation to force bin Laden to surrender and to assess the threat he posed at that particular moment.
But even without these answers, the killing could have significant implications for future policies on al-Qaeda as well as Libya and other countries.
The nature of bin Laden’s killing may be a sign that the US is increasingly likely to kill rather than to capture al-Qaeda members. If so, this may stem from the current administration’s reluctance to send new inmates to Guantanamo Bay, and the negative experience of attempting a criminal trial of Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, who admitted being the architect of the September 11 attacks.54
There may be implications too for the situation in Libya. Some of the arguments used to present bin Laden’s killing as lawful could also be applied if coalition forces kill Colonel Gaddafi. General Sir David Richards, the UK’s Chief of Defence Staff, has reportedly said that the killing of Osama bin Laden should serve as a warning to Gaddafi.55
A wider implication is that the killing may be seen as a precedent for targeted killings of individuals by any state, across international boundaries, at least where terrorism is involved. The US is not the only state to have used force against a non-state actor in another sovereign state, in the context of the fight against terrorism: Israel, Turkey and Colombia have also done so, without the consent of the other state or authorisation by the UN Security Council.56 The more states act in this way, the more likely it is to become accepted, at least politically if not as a matter of international law. "

See the PDF



I am interested to note that the British government's House of Commons Library, in an internal report for MPs written by parliamentary staff, analysing the legal arguments surrounding the action and its repercussions, has come to much the same conclusion as Lowaicue has. In the report the HOCL notes that Bin Laden's death may set a precedent for 'targeted killings' by states in the future.

In other words, the USA is seen, even amongst its allies, to have acted in a manner which grants legitimacy to such political assassination as seen in previous actions by Russia and China, actions which the United States has traditionally attempted to distance itself from.
 
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I have yet to personally meet anybody who went out in the streets to celebrate the Osama death. It just seems all fabricated. Somebody called some group somewhere that put that crap together. It had to be a young group, did you see those crowds? Maybe something like the "Young Republicans" or something like that all lefty...

Of course I have no evidence, but it just seemed weird. Did it seem weird to anybody else? There were crowds of people even before the announcement, and they all seemed quite young.

They weren't plants. The streets of NYC were literally flooded. There were spontaneous celebrations at sporting events when it was announced, as well.

People just have different mentalities about it. For some, it was much more somber & contemplative, and for others, it was celebration & "USA!" This might be partly generational; I watched an interview with a group of the "9/11 kids" (kids in their late teens & early 20's now, who were just old enough to understand what was happening in '01), and they were definitely of the celebration mindset. Their whole lives have been different because of 9/11 - they haven't grown up in the "safe" world that you & I knew...
 
Oh, I have no problems with going into Pakistan and killing the son of a bitch, just like we did! But then, I didn't have a problem with invading Iraq and taking out that scumbag either, or holding terrorist thugs at Gitmo, or waterboarding terrorist thugs who had information which DID save American lives! I'm consistent all the way down the line, sister, it's you people who are all over the board, and with selective 'morality' which is determined solely by political affiliations.

Then maybe you can show me where I'm inconsistent, bro. I didn't celebrate the assassination and I stated my misgivings at least twice on this thread alone. But don't let the facts stop your sweeping generalizations.

Let me make it even clearer: everything above that you are for, I'm against. Better now?
 
They weren't plants. The streets of NYC were literally flooded. There were spontaneous celebrations at sporting events when it was announced, as well.

People just have different mentalities about it. For some, it was much more somber & contemplative, and for others, it was celebration & "USA!" This might be partly generational; I watched an interview with a group of the "9/11 kids" (kids in their late teens & early 20's now, who were just old enough to understand what was happening in '01), and they were definitely of the celebration mindset. Their whole lives have been different because of 9/11 - they haven't grown up in the "safe" world that you & I knew...

It just seems weird to me then. I'm cool with that. It just didn't seem like a time to celebrate at all. I pictured the idiots in the streets of Palestine celebrating the towers falling. It just didn't seem to be something that "we" do, but apparently I am alone in that belief.
 
It just seems weird to me then. I'm cool with that. It just didn't seem like a time to celebrate at all. I pictured the idiots in the streets of Palestine celebrating the towers falling. It just didn't seem to be something that "we" do, but apparently I am alone in that belief.


I felt the same way, Damo. I wondered, like you, if it was just me. I mean, I was glad that we killed him, and I believe it was a monumental achievement in the war on terror, but the throngs of people who supposedly showed up spontaneously at the White House? ...Smacked of some 'community organizing' to me. Since then, we have seen the parade of celebrating liberals, heaping all the credit and praise on Obama, as if he and he alone, had gone into Pakistan himself, and killed OBL. That's been a real turn-off for me. I have, all along, given credit to Obama for ordering the mission, it took some guts to give the okay on that, and it was a huge political risk... what if it had gone badly? I think a botched mission may have sealed Obama's fate, with the economic woes. So I give him credit there, he took a chance and made a bold move... but in retrospect, what other possible move could he have made? What would have been the public reaction to learn, we found out where OBL was, and thought about going after him but decided not to do so? That might have been even worse than a botched mission. So, while it was a bold move which took courage, it was also pretty much a no-brainer, he had to do it... any president would have. And the "credit" lies with a host of people, spanning three administrations, and of course, with the expert training of our Navy SEALS, who could have very easily botched it, but didn't.
 
As far as I am aware you are an American. As an American you value your sovereignty just as I, as a Brit, value our sovereignty and just as anyone else from any other country value theirs.
OK so far?
Right. So can we agree that sovereignty is sacrosanct and that to ignore another nation’s sovereignty by illegaly entering their country is tantamount to invasion and is illegal. I doubt that even you could disagree with that. Good.
So, by entering Pakistan, unannounced, with no prior or current permission you were acting illegally.
Next point. What proof did your people have that the man they were sent to kill, (yes they were) actually was Osama bin Laden? Did they request proof? Fingerprint? No. They killed an unarmed, elderly man with a beard who might or might not, at the time, have been Osama bin Laden.
Susequent DNA checks proved their case, but upon entering a foreign country they had no proof. They were on a murder mission.
So you (your nation) broke the international law.
Keep reading, dear boy.
I am not saddened by the fact that OBL is no more, indeed I celebrated the event like most sane people (not as the yanks did… but there are few sane there).
There are two things to be resolved.
1. America broke the law on several counts and should be made to answer for that.
2. America killed Osama bin Laden and they should be applauded for that.
So when I see and hear gung ho brain deads like your goodself, Trix, my view of your nation takes yet another step down into the abyss of violence and arrogance where once there was a hill of rightful pride.
It is, without a doubt, the duty of all good Americans, indeed all good people, to ensure that people like you do not prosper so that America can once more be worthy of its name (ref Mr. Ap Meryck)

Here's all you need to remember... If not for America, you would be goose-stepping around Buckingham Palace, speaking German. We've saved you ignorant people TWICE from totalitarian dictatorship, and you still seem hell-bent on returning to that water hole. I don't know what the fuck is the matter with you Europeans, that you feel compelled to give up your freedoms to authority, but you seem to have something in your DNA which draws you in that direction. Now, in the past, we've always been the ones to have to come save your bacon... but within the past 30-40 years in America, our younger generations have been brainwashed by Communists, and have begun to think more and more like Europeans. So the next time a Hitler or Mussolini emerges, we probably won't be there to rescue your stupid asses. Then, maybe your vitriol and hate toward the US will be understandable, but for now, you sound like a complete and total retard to me, who doesn't understand history.
 
I felt the same way, Damo. I wondered, like you, if it was just me. I mean, I was glad that we killed him, and I believe it was a monumental achievement in the war on terror, but the throngs of people who supposedly showed up spontaneously at the White House? ...Smacked of some 'community organizing' to me. Since then, we have seen the parade of celebrating liberals, heaping all the credit and praise on Obama, as if he and he alone, had gone into Pakistan himself, and killed OBL. That's been a real turn-off for me. I have, all along, given credit to Obama for ordering the mission, it took some guts to give the okay on that, and it was a huge political risk... what if it had gone badly? I think a botched mission may have sealed Obama's fate, with the economic woes. So I give him credit there, he took a chance and made a bold move... but in retrospect, what other possible move could he have made? What would have been the public reaction to learn, we found out where OBL was, and thought about going after him but decided not to do so? That might have been even worse than a botched mission. So, while it was a bold move which took courage, it was also pretty much a no-brainer, he had to do it... any president would have. And the "credit" lies with a host of people, spanning three administrations, and of course, with the expert training of our Navy SEALS, who could have very easily botched it, but didn't.

LOL - Dixie, if Bush had caught or killed OBL, you'd still be spiking footballs. Remember "the greatest military achievement of our generation!"?

Obama made OBL the #1 priority, and made the call to get him. Deal w/ it...
 
Here's all you need to remember... If not for America, you would be goose-stepping around Buckingham Palace, speaking German. We've saved you ignorant people TWICE from totalitarian dictatorship, and you still seem hell-bent on returning to that water hole. I don't know what the fuck is the matter with you Europeans, that you feel compelled to give up your freedoms to authority, but you seem to have something in your DNA which draws you in that direction. Now, in the past, we've always been the ones to have to come save your bacon... but within the past 30-40 years in America, our younger generations have been brainwashed by Communists, and have begun to think more and more like Europeans. So the next time a Hitler or Mussolini emerges, we probably won't be there to rescue your stupid asses. Then, maybe your vitriol and hate toward the US will be understandable, but for now, you sound like a complete and total retard to me, who doesn't understand history.

This place wouldn't be the same without these. :D
 
LOL - Dixie, if Bush had caught or killed OBL, you'd still be spiking footballs. Remember "the greatest military achievement of our generation!"?

Obama made OBL the #1 priority, and made the call to get him. Deal w/ it...

No, I really wouldn't. I would still be giving credit to everyone except scum-sucking liberals who protested everything about the War on Terror. I have very often credited Clinton for things he did in the pre-war on terror, and I am not a Clinton fan at all. And you can keep parading around claiming this was Obama's #1 priority, all you like... I hope you continue to do that, and turn people off! The fact is, if it had been his #1 priority, he wouldn't have waited 16 hrs to make up his mind.
 
No, I really wouldn't. I would still be giving credit to everyone except scum-sucking liberals who protested everything about the War on Terror. I have very often credited Clinton for things he did in the pre-war on terror, and I am not a Clinton fan at all. And you can keep parading around claiming this was Obama's #1 priority, all you like... I hope you continue to do that, and turn people off! The fact is, if it had been his #1 priority, he wouldn't have waited 16 hrs to make up his mind.

Yeah - I'm sure my doing that would turn people off. And you were the one who kept repeating Hannity's claim after 9/11 that Clinton had OBL's "head on a platter" and dropped the ball.

Obama told Leon Panetta from the get go that getting OBL was the #1 priority. Sorry - them's the facts.

And no worries; few will forget that your very 1st reaction on the OBL news was fear about how much it might help Obama...
 
Yeah - I'm sure my doing that would turn people off. And you were the one who kept repeating Hannity's claim after 9/11 that Clinton had OBL's "head on a platter" and dropped the ball.

Obama told Leon Panetta from the get go that getting OBL was the #1 priority. Sorry - them's the facts.

And no worries; few will forget that your very 1st reaction on the OBL news was fear about how much it might help Obama...

First of all, I never did criticize Clinton for not taking out OBL. Many on the right did, and I think they were wrong to do so. We can't view things in retrospect, Clinton didn't know 9/11 was going to happen, so to blame him for not preventing it, is kind of stupid. I think a LOT of people 'dropped the ball' before 9/11, the commission found there was a "lack of imagination" throughout the intelligence community. So there is no one person you can blame for that, it's just how things were, and hopefully we learned from it.

I don't really care that the facts are Obama told Panetta something... THE FACT is, he waited 16 hrs before giving the okay... doesn't sound like it was his #1 priority... just saying. As for being "afraid" of how much it would help Obama, that's laughable.. I already admitted it will help Obama politically, but I personally think the gloating by liberals like you, are going to nullify any help it may have given him in the end. By trying to soak up ALL the credit, you look desperate and despicable. Not to mention, completely ignorant of the years of hard work and effort put forth by our CIA, our military, and national security experts. You want to take a big steamy shit on them and heap all the praise on Obama? Go for it! I predict that will come back to bite you in the ass.
 
First of all, I never did criticize Clinton for not taking out OBL. Many on the right did, and I think they were wrong to do so. We can't view things in retrospect, Clinton didn't know 9/11 was going to happen, so to blame him for not preventing it, is kind of stupid. I think a LOT of people 'dropped the ball' before 9/11, the commission found there was a "lack of imagination" throughout the intelligence community. So there is no one person you can blame for that, it's just how things were, and hopefully we learned from it.

I don't really care that the facts are Obama told Panetta something... THE FACT is, he waited 16 hrs before giving the okay... doesn't sound like it was his #1 priority... just saying. As for being "afraid" of how much it would help Obama, that's laughable.. I already admitted it will help Obama politically, but I personally think the gloating by liberals like you, are going to nullify any help it may have given him in the end. By trying to soak up ALL the credit, you look desperate and despicable. Not to mention, completely ignorant of the years of hard work and effort put forth by our CIA, our military, and national security experts. You want to take a big steamy shit on them and heap all the praise on Obama? Go for it! I predict that will come back to bite you in the ass.

Where have I heard that one before?

Your 1st reaction was really stunning. It was flat-out fear - instant partisanship.
 
Where have I heard that one before?

Your 1st reaction was really stunning. It was flat-out fear - instant partisanship.

No, my first reaction was to wonder why you were giddy like a little school girl, since you have been on a non-stop campaign to undermine the entire war on terror. I see you are still giddy and gloating, and I think it will hurt you politically if you keep that up. So by all means, please keep it up!
 
I predict that will come back to bite you in the ass.
Where have I heard that one before?

Well, you heard it when Mondale embraced Carter policy to run against Reagan, you heard it when Dukakka boarded the tank and tried to appear 'pro-military' ...you heard it when Algore failed to get Clinton's support... you heard it when Liberals nominated Kerry... so you've probably heard it enough times over the years to understand it's correct.
 
No, my first reaction was to wonder why you were giddy like a little school girl, since you have been on a non-stop campaign to undermine the entire war on terror. I see you are still giddy and gloating, and I think it will hurt you politically if you keep that up. So by all means, please keep it up!

I hadn't even posted yet. It was literally within minutes of the announcement, and your 1st reaction was panic over the possible benefit to Obama.

By "non-stop campaign to undermine the entire war on terror," do you mean my opposition to Iraq - a country that didn't attack us, and didn't have the capability of doing so?
 
I hadn't even posted yet. It was literally within minutes of the announcement, and your 1st reaction was panic over the possible benefit to Obama.

By "non-stop campaign to undermine the entire war on terror," do you mean my opposition to Iraq - a country that didn't attack us, and didn't have the capability of doing so?

You've obviously misinterpreted something if you sensed me "panicking" over this, or anything else. I don't panic! I gave Obama credit and praise for his courage in following through with Bush's initiative and the initiatives started under Bill Clinton. I have not been partisan about that, I give them all three credit for tackling this problem and not resting until we got OBL. But let's be clear WE got OBL, not Obama alone. It was a monumental effort which spanned 3 administrations, and I have said that repeatedly throughout the whole thing, even from the very start. And let's be clear about something else, which I think you pinheads are totally missing here... killing OBL doesn't conclude the war on terror! This was not "the end" of it... Many of you want to think this was it... this was all we needed to do, the ONLY priority... but this was just a blip on the radar, really. OBL was a figurehead, an important one, but nonetheless, a figurehead. The organization known as alQaeda, didn't dry up and blow away with the death of OBL, they are still out there, more determined than ever to do us harm and commit more sensational terror attacks on US soil. While we can pause to celebrate that we finally got the leader of AQ, it's not over yet. There will still be a lot of work left to do, and this will span the remainder of Obama's presidency, and probably the next several administrations to come. Believing that this event was some kind of final victory in the war on terror, is not only short-sighted and stupid, but completely ignorant of the problem to begin with.
 
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