No Christmas For Ivanka.

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,



Did you catch the part where there are different forms of Judaism?

Just like Christianity it comes in many forms from barely religious to extremely religious.

You know, it's not like all Catholics are dressing inn special clothes or controlling what they eat when. Same can be said of Muslims or Jews. It really seems to be up to the individual just how immersed they wish to be. Few Christians follow every edict in the Bible.

Freedom of religion is a good thing.

Including freedom from religion of that's what one chooses.

It would be inaccurate to judge all participants in any general religion by one set of requirements.

What you say makes sense but you started a thread about policing the behavior of certain Jews. Maybe this isn’t apt but take the n-word. Obviously it is viewed differently by who is saying it. A black persons saying it is ok but a non black person saying it we know is not acceptable. It’s why I asked if you were Jewish. Maybe a Jewish person views someone like my friend giving his kid a gift than a non Jew would. As guno has expressed there are a handful of names for Jews who don’t behave a certain way.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello ThatOwlWoman,

They do have their own Bible. Here is a rather sympathetic look at their beliefs: https://www.christianity.com/church...ut-jehovah-s-witnesses-and-their-beliefs.html

My only real quibble about them is their ridiculous refusal to accept some life-saving medical measures including receiving blood transfusions. Many moons ago my best friend at work (hospital) was a JW. She almost died giving birth to her one and only child, from loss of blood. She said that if her daughter was ever hurt like in a car accident or something that she would likewise refuse a transfusion even if it meant that she would die. As fate would have it, the next year I and my premature baby almost died during his birth. We both received transfusions that saved our lives. Paula came to see me in the hospital and said she was glad that I didn't croak and said that since I wasn't a JW there was no sin in receiving the units of blood. Whew, I was so relieved! </sarcasm> lol

Very strange. (Glad you and son were OK) I'm surprised she gave birth in a hospital at all. Or did she?

And there is another thing that makes it hard for a religious sect to grow. If part of the teachings is that they cannot receive modern medical treatments they must lose a lot of the flock needlessly.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Very strange. (Glad you and son were OK) I'm surprised she gave birth in a hospital at all. Or did she?

She did. She went into labor prematurely and was hospitalized in an attempt to delay delivery, which didn't work.

And there is another thing that makes it hard for a religious sect to grow. If part of the teachings is that they cannot receive modern medical treatments they must lose a lot of the flock needlessly.

It also can lead to courts having to intervene on behalf of children in danger. I don't think that they eschew *all* medical treatments like some sects (Christian Science) do, but blood transfusions are definitely forbidden. You've probably noticed in your years on political forums that there is a subset of people who enjoy belonging to a small "outcast" group, as though they have secret knowledge that the rest of us do not. No doubt they have some self-esteem problems and/or inability to get along very well with others. JWs grow their group with aggressive proselytizing. No doubt you've had them appear at your door more than once, eh? We live way, way out in what is close to being a wilderness, a 45 minute drive from their Kingdom Hall. Yet they've even shown up way out here and left their tracts in the door, without knocking. I credit the pentagram wind chime and the flying raven metal sculpture for that. lol

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello cawacko,

What you say makes sense but you started a thread about policing the behavior of certain Jews. Maybe this isn’t apt but take the n-word. Obviously it is viewed differently by who is saying it. A black persons saying it is ok but a non black person saying it we know is not acceptable. It’s why I asked if you were Jewish. Maybe a Jewish person views someone like my friend giving his kid a gift than a non Jew would. As guno has expressed there are a handful of names for Jews who don’t behave a certain way.

It's an opinion thread. There is nothing about policing in the OP. It has been noted several times that you are reading things into the thread which simply are not there. That's why you can't back up your claim with a quote about policing.

Do you think it's fine if people vow to quit a previous religion to convert to a new religion, and then continue to practice the old religion?

I find it disingenuous. But I guess since it is Ivanka perhaps it would be no surprise if she did what you seem to think should should be able to do without criticism.

You seem to think she should be able to have it both ways.

 

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,



It's an opinion thread. There is nothing about policing in the OP. It has been noted several times that you are reading things into the thread which simply are not there. That's why you can't back up your claim with a quote about policing.

Do you think it's fine if people vow to quit a previous religion to convert to a new religion, and then continue to practice the old religion?

I find it disingenuous. But I guess since it is Ivanka perhaps it would be no surprise if she did what you seem to think should should be able to do without criticism.

You seem to think she should be able to have it both ways.

Backing up my 'claim' would be your OP. In the black community, for instance, there is often a 'policing' of what defines blackness. Thus those who don't follow are deemed Uncle Tom's, race traitors etc. Your OP comes across as a Jewish person doing something similar. Your OP sounds like maybe not a threat but a 'policing' of how real Jews should act and thus a warning not to behave in any other way. Because otherwise why would anyone care? (and I personally could not care less that my friend gave his kids a gift on Christmas. I don't see him trying to have it both ways nor do I think him any less a Jew.)

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

Understand totally.
The answer given in scripture to this axiomatic question is

That’s a human deduction coming from a created beings perspective based in emotions. And the biblical application is that God acted in grace and mercy when allowing for the fall. Keep in mind, I’m in the minority view among theologians. Because most will not be able to remain in the faith or think they won’t (they should try it), if they cannot force an answer to your obvious question. They end up blaming you personally rather than Adam. Again, one does not have to believe it but this is your biblical answer. I don’t care if it doesn’t make sense, I only care about what was written literally.

Can we take the Bible literally word verbatim?

How do we know that ancient scrolls were translated properly? How do we know that the scrolls were translated in good faith? And, I'm not just talking about the King George translations. I'm also talking about the Latin translations as well, by the Roman Catholic Church?

If I know one thing about man! If Man has the power to manipulate- Man often times will manipulate. Man can lie! Man can make up Conspiracy Theories. Man can abuse power. Man can deny the truth! AND I'LL GIVE YOU A GREAT EXAMPLE- DONALD TRUMP!

Who were in charge of translating the Scrolls? Could they have been men like Donald Trump in power at the time? Kings? Caesars?

I mean, we can't even all agree on what Robert Mueller was trying to say in his Special Council Report. Today we can't even all agree who is the president- much less who is God!

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Can we take the Bible literally word verbatim?

How do we know that ancient scrolls were translated properly? How do we know that the scrolls were translated in good faith? And, I'm not just talking about the King George translations. I'm also talking about the Latin translations as well, by the Roman Catholic Church?

If I know one thing about man! If Man has the power to manipulate- Man often times will manipulate. Man can lie! Man can make up Conspiracy Theories. Man can abuse power. Man can deny the truth! AND I'LL GIVE YOU A GREAT EXAMPLE- DONALD TRUMP!

Who were in charge of translating the Scrolls? Could they have been men like Donald Trump in power at the time? Kings? Caesars?

I mean, we can't even all agree on what Robert Mueller was trying to say in his Special Council Report. Today we can't even all agree who is the president- much less who is God!

In the times when the events of the Bible happened the majority of people could not read; that skill was for the priests and royalty and those who served them. Obviously this leads to the conclusion that these people in power might very well have -- and did -- translate passages in such a way as to favor themselves and how they wanted the people to see them.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

In the times when the events of the Bible happened the majority of people could not read; that skill was for the priests and royalty and those who served them. Obviously this leads to the conclusion that these people in power might very well have -- and did -- translate passages in such a way as to favor themselves and how they wanted the people to see them.

That is a natural human trait. Trump is doing it with the Constitution. His big mistake is that too many other people can read better than him.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

In the times when the events of the Bible happened the majority of people could not read; that skill was for the priests and royalty and those who served them. Obviously this leads to the conclusion that these people in power might very well have -- and did -- translate passages in such a way as to favor themselves and how they wanted the people to see them.

I wasn't trying to set anything up. However, this is also how the Constitution of the United States was written as well.

NOw we just all argue about what is in the Constitution and what it says- or what we think it says!

 

[Cypress]

In the times when the events of the Bible happened the majority of people could not read; that skill was for the priests and royalty and those who served them. Obviously this leads to the conclusion that these people in power might very well have -- and did -- translate passages in such a way as to favor themselves and how they wanted the people to see them.

It is doubtful that the copies we have of the New Testament, The Iliad, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Annalects of Confucius faithfully represent the originals, and are free of embellishment.

The most recent hand written copies we have of the NT are from the Middle Ages, a thousand years after the original gospels were written.

It is one reason I do not subscribe to the Protestant claim that the scriptures are inerrant, and are the only source of truth. English translations of the NT cannot be perfectly representative of the original ancient Greek prose of the 1st century.

On the flip side, modern scholars are able to use the criterion of multiple attestation, and the criterion of dissimilarty and contextual context to cull the historically accurate elements of the NT, and we have evidence that medieval Christian scribes tried to be diligent about correcting obvious mistakes they found as they consulted older copies.

To me, the bottom line is that the NT should be approached as an important piece of literature, moral philosophy, and spiritual allegory which is infused with some historical context .

 

[Peace n Safety]

Can we take the Bible literally word verbatim?

How do we know that ancient scrolls were translated properly? How do we know that the scrolls were translated in good faith? And, I'm not just talking about the King George translations. I'm also talking about the Latin translations as well, by the Roman Catholic Church?

If I know one thing about man! If Man has the power to manipulate- Man often times will manipulate. Man can lie! Man can make up Conspiracy Theories. Man can abuse power. Man can deny the truth! AND I'LL GIVE YOU A GREAT EXAMPLE- DONALD TRUMP!

Who were in charge of translating the Scrolls? Could they have been men like Donald Trump in power at the time? Kings? Caesars?

I mean, we can't even all agree on what Robert Mueller was trying to say in his Special Council Report. Today we can't even all agree who is the president- much less who is God!

The Jews were responsible for the preservation of scripture. As for the New Testament, it was not the translation that was corrupted but the interpretation. The Catholic Church employed the allegorical hermeneutic. Rabbinic Judaism employs the allegorical hermeneutic. When Jesus was on site in Israel the entire Old Testament had been superseded by Mishnaic law. That is why Jesus was rejected by the leaders of Israel because he violated the Talmudic tradition. When he said that a house built on sand could not withstand the storms he was telling the people that first century Pharisaic Judaism was a house built on sand and that his teachings were the house built upon a rock.
The sermon on the mount was not teaching that looking at a woman in lust was equal to adultery or that hatin was equal to murdering. What Jesus was doing was showing the weakness of Judaism in outward conformity towards the law of Moses by teaching that the the righteous requirements of those laws were deeper than mere outward show.

As for man bungling theory. He did in the many denominations ands cults within both Christianity and Judaism. But with modern technology we have the ability to cross examine the evidence of different manuscripts to check for changes and discrepancies. For example we can can go back to King Jimmy and further back to Wycliffe and Luther to see if, and when things were changed. They were not. Besides some scribal errors in grammar the text remains true and without error that changes the doctrinal whole.

The translators were not divinely inspired. The translations were not divinely inspired. Only the original autographs were divinely inspired of which none remain. Our faith is based on the translations from the oldest manuscripts available. I would say that the Jews were very meticulous in their handling of the Old Testament. Many of Jewish young men by 13 could quite the first five books of the Bible verbatim as part of their education throughout the centuries.


Blessin’s

 

[Peace n Safety]

In the times when the events of the Bible happened the majority of people could not read; that skill was for the priests and royalty and those who served them. Obviously this leads to the conclusion that these people in power might very well have -- and did -- translate passages in such a way as to favor themselves and how they wanted the people to see them.

A blanket statement that betokens unworthy scholarship


Blessin’s

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

It is doubtful that the copies we have of the New Testament, The Iliad, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Annalects of Confucius faithfully represent the originals, and are free of embellishment.

The most recent hand written copies we have of the NT are from the Middle Ages, a thousand years after the original gospels were written.

It is one reason I do not subscribe to the Protestant claim that the scriptures are inerrant, and are the only source of truth. English translations of the NT cannot be perfectly representative of the original ancient Greek prose of the 1st century.

On the flip side, modern scholars are able to use the criterion of multiple attestation, and the criterion of dissimilarty and contextual context to cull the historically accurate elements of the NT, and we have evidence that medieval Christian scribes tried to be diligent about correcting obvious mistakes they found as they consulted older copies.

To me, the bottom line is that the NT should be approached as an important piece of literature, moral philosophy, and spiritual allegory which is infused with some historical context .

That is an imminently fair way of looking at it, Cypress. Those who claim it's the inerrant, infallible WORD OF GOD are just making themselves look silly.

 

[Peace n Safety]

That is an imminently fair way of looking at it, Cypress. Those who claim it's the inerrant, infallible WORD OF GOD are just making themselves look silly.

That was said of us who expected the reestablishment of the state of Israel.


Bless you my child

 

[Cypress]

That is an imminently fair way of looking at it, Cypress. Those who claim it's the inerrant, infallible WORD OF GOD are just making themselves look silly.

I always make the case that all the garden variety bible thumpers on message boards have never actually read the New Testament.

Not as it was originally written, and certainly not from the perspective, mentality, and context of late Bronze Age people of the Levant who wrote it.

Reading from a 20th-generation hand-transcription, of an English translation, of a Latin translation of an original 1st century document written in archaic Greek can only give one an oblique impression of what was originally written 2000 years ago.

While I have some admiration for the democratic disposition of the Protestant posture of a priesthood of all believers, there is something to be said for the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox expectation that it takes years of seminary training and study of ancient languages to prepare one to truly understand the intent of the NT.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

I always make the case that all the garden variety bible thumpers on message boards have never actually read the New Testament.

Not as it was originally written, and certainly not from the perspective, mentality, and context of late Bronze Age people of the Levant who wrote it.

Reading from a 20th-generation hand-transcription, of an English translation, of a Latin translation of an original 1st century document written in archaic Greek can only give one an oblique impression of what was originally written 2000 years ago.

While I have some admiration for the democratic disposition of the Protestant posture of a priesthood of all believers, there is something to be said for the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox expectation that it takes years of seminary training and study of ancient languages to prepare one to truly understand the intent of the NT.

Today's American Xtian fundies scorn that sort of scholarship and will literally follow anyone who claims he knows Jesus's heart.

In the words on another great man:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace. -- John Lennon

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

A PSA for Peas and Carrots: Don't even bother.

This message is hidden because Peace n Safety is on your ignore list.

 

[Peace n Safety]

A PSA for Peas and Carrots: Don't even bother.

This message is hidden because Peace n Safety is on your ignore list.

I understand old owl woman, too much light. I will always be here for you. In love


Bless you my child

 

[Peace n Safety]

I always make the case that all the garden variety bible thumpers on message boards have never actually read the New Testament.

Not as it was originally written, and certainly not from the perspective, mentality, and context of late Bronze Age people of the Levant who wrote it.

Reading from a 20th-generation hand-transcription, of an English translation, of a Latin translation of an original 1st century document written in archaic Greek can only give one an oblique impression of what was originally written 2000 years ago.

While I have some admiration for the democratic disposition of the Protestant posture of a priesthood of all believers, there is something to be said for the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox expectation that it takes years of seminary training and study of ancient languages to prepare one to truly understand the intent of the NT.

This is why it was imperative that the New Testament be studied not from a Greek or Roman perspective but from a first century Jewish believer’s perspective of which I have a masters.

For example the famous you must be born again discussion between Yeshua and Nicodemus. Can you name the 6 ways a Jew could be born again? Because without the Jewish frame of reference it is overlooked and taught that Nic did not follow what Yeshua was saying when in reality he had been born again 4 times already.


Bless you my child

 

[Peace n Safety]

Great thread. Since Politroller started it, it can’t be locked as my theological ones were. I own it.


Bless you my child