If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[IBDaMann]

you have not proven that the provided squiggle and dots are in err.

I don't have to. You haven't shown any quarks. Why do you believe in quarks anyway?

at this point I trust the hadrons.

Too funny, you have conversations with hadrons. Even funnier, you trust them!

Have you read any good quarks lately? The hadrons say you can trust them.

 

[Cypress]

Neutrinos are completely unfalsifiable things, like invisible, purple lunar leprechauns!!! They are entirely theorized as things!!!

Ghostly' neutrinos spotted inside the world's largest particle accelerator for the first time​

For the very first time, physicists have created and detected high-energy "ghost particles" inside the world's largest atom smasher. The findings could help unlock the secrets of how stars go supernova.

The tiny particles, known as neutrinos, were spotted by the FASER neutrino detector at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) — the world's largest particle accelerator, located at the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) near Geneva, Switzerland.

But despite their ubiquity, the chargeless and near massless particles' minimal interactions with other matter makes them incredibly difficult to detect. Despite this many famous neutrino detection experiments — such as Japan's Super-Kamiokande detector, Fermilab's MiniBooNE, and the Antarctic IceCube detector — have been able to spot solar-generated neutrinos.

'Ghostly' neutrinos spotted inside the world's largest particle accelerator for the first time

Signatures of neutrinos, or ghostly particles that rarely interact with others, were tentatively spotted in the Large Hadron Collider in 2021. Now, physicists have f confirmed they are real.

www.livescience.com

 

[Cypress]

The universe is 99.9% hostile to terrestrial life. If the universe is fine-tuned then the fine-tuning was done by a sadistic HATER!!!

The universe is curiously finely tuned to allow complex atomic matter to exist.

Without complex atomic matter life, planets, stars, water, heavy elements would not exist.

The universe could easily have consisted of nothing but energy or plasma if the physical and mathematical parameters and energy balance of the cosmos varied slightly

 

[Monad Portal]

I gargle monkey semen.

eww.

 

[IBDaMann]

Ghostly' neutrinos spotted inside the world's largest particle accelerator for the first time​

The question still stands. How were quarks or neutrinos supposedly observed. It's a hoax until shown otherwise.


Let's jump forward a few posts and not waste the time: How do the supposed "detectors" differentiate between charged particles that resulted from neutrino collisions and charged particles that were produced normally?

 

[IBDaMann]

The universe is curiously finely tuned to allow complex atomic matter to exist.

You are chanting. The universe is not fine tuned for life. It is a random dust clound, i.e. not fine tuned for anything at all. The universe is 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% hostile to terrestrial life.

Without complex atomic matter life, planets, stars, water, heavy elements would not exist.

Congratulations. You have discovered that the only kind of universe that can possibly exist is the one that exists.

The universe could easily have consisted of nothing but energy or plasma

Demonstrate that the universe could have easily been any other way than the way it is.

if the physical and mathematical parameters and energy balance of the cosmos varied slightly

Demonstrate that the "parameters" even could have varied.

 

[Cypress]

You are chanting. The universe is not fine tuned for life. It is a random dust clound!!!!

The biosphere on Earth did not originate in isolation.

It required the physical fine tuning which allowed complex atomic matter to form, which allowed stars to form, which allowed stellar nuclear fusion to occur, to allow heavy elements like carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, iron, calcium, phosphorus, etc. to be created.

Demonstrate that the "parameters" even could have varied!!!

It's mathematically improbable that the physical properties, mathematical parameters, energy balance in the universe just settled on the right values by chance to allow for complex atomic matter, stars, planets to form and organize.

That kind of coincidence deserves an explanation because scientists either don't believe in coincidences or think that invoking coincidence make shitty explanations.

Looking at the organization and fine tuning of the universe, and then just throwing your hands up in the air and blurting out "well, that's just the way it is!" isn't a satisfactory answer intellectually.

 

[WinterBorn]

its bullshit, masonic douche boy.

"masonic douche boy"??? lmao That is hilarious.


But please point out the actual bullshit in what was said. Tell us exactly what part is bullshit? I mean, if you can.

 

[WinterBorn]

There is no evolutionary benefit to aiding strangers, rivals, enemies, and there is no evolutionary benefit to the golden rule outside your own family, tribal, or social group.

There is no evolutionary benefit risking your life and your resources for complete strangers.

That's why you never see it practiced in the animal world, with the possible exception of the sentient higher mammals like elephants and dolphins.

There are plenty of examples of animals helping other animals, especially young ones.

When rival alpha male wolves fight, when the loser surrenders, the victory decides whether to rip out his throat or let him get up. Most of the time they let them up. Choice made, not in the victor's interest, but that of the pack.

 

[Cypress]

There are plenty of examples of animals helping other animals, especially young ones.

Yes, within their own family, pack, flock. That is completely understandable from the perspective of Darwinian evolution.
You don't see chimpanzees caring for the offspring of rival chimp troops, and you don't see lions bringing food to a rival pride.

When rival alpha male wolves fight, when the loser surrenders, the victory decides whether to rip out his throat or let him get up. Most of the time they let them up. Choice made, not in the victor's interest, but that of the pack.

Again, cooperation within the family, tribe, or pack is not surprising in the least. Reciprocity and mutual cooperation within the family, pack, social group is built into Darwinian evolution. Advantageous mutual cooperation is not morality.

The question is whether you can universalize the concept of self sacrifice for the welfare of others outside your social group, including towards complete strangers, rivals, maybe even enemies.

 

[Monad Portal]

The question still stands. How were quarks or neutrinos supposedly observed. It's a hoax until shown otherwise.


Let's jump forward a few posts and not waste the time: How do the supposed "detectors" differentiate between charged particles that resulted from neutrino collisions and charged particles that were produced normally?

the presence of man manmade collision (independent variable) results in particles (dependant variable) not around normally.

 

[gfm7175]

I have a few questions. This happens to be a huge atheist/Christian debate topic, mostly because Christians have many flavors of repentance.

A. The main one: Does repentance matter or is faith alone all that is needed? Take the case of a faithful individual who doesn't acknowledge an error. Does it matter? Does someone who is already "saved" really need Jesus Christ to keep on forgiving him?

Repentance most definitely matters (in that case and any other). Salvation is achieved by God's grace alone (God's unmerited favor towards humanity), through one's faith alone (one's trusting in Jesus Christ and his finished work -- namely his perfect life, death, and resurrection). One's personal effort ("doing good works") does nothing in terms of receiving salvation.

*** But repentance isn't necessary then, right?? (because repentance is one's personal effort, right??) ***

Repentance (in an overall sense, rather than solely an interpersonal sense) involves a "transformed mind" with regard to sin (a change in how one perceives sin). Repentance (overall) isn't something that can be accomplished solely on one's own. It is also a work of God (see Psalm 51 for The Bible's prime example of repentance). However, it is up to the individual to actively seek the ways of God rather than remaining stagnant within one's own sinful ways. Into The Night did a very good job of conveying the interpersonal aspect of repentance, providing "steps of repentance" that individuals should take whenever they've wronged someone.

Continued repentance (overall) involves a state of mind in which one continually wars against one's own sinful nature (one's own natural tendency to commit sin) rather than making friends with that sinful nature. Thus, repentance (turning away from sin) is something that goes hand in hand with the salvation that is received through grace by faith (turning towards God).

God has already done the "heavy lifting" (via Jesus living a perfect life, dying on the cross, and then rising from the dead). You need only have faith in his work.

B. Jesus died to save everyone; is He really going to go through all that just to not forgive someone a trespass?

Yes, because some people refuse to receive God's gift of salvation.

C. Atheists and Protestants agree on your second point, but Catholics believe that Contrition, i.e. "confessing to a priest" absolves one of his sins. The wronged party is never faced or compensated because God has already done the forgiving, which is all that matters in Catholicism. (In Catholicism, one's soul is like one's clothing; it needs to be laundered periodically, which is what Contrition accomplishes, and one is free to go as long as one wants without laundering one's clothes, but he will be judged by his attire at the moment his time comes and the bouncer in the sky decides whether or not he gets into the club).

Catholicism has this wrong. The wronged party should absolutely be faced (in addition to facing God). Both Matthew 5 and Matthew 18 make this quite clear.

I see that Into The Night noted that "the Protestants aren't much better". He's correct about that (in a generalized sense, which is all that one can really speak of with regard to so many people, unless one wishes to nuance the heck out of each and every post made on this forum), but I'll just make a quick note for you that there are in fact a minority of "Protestants" who are much more biblical in their views (who do NOT encourage woke policies or attempt to change Jesus into a woman), such as the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod" (WELS) church that I am a member of (and regularly attend).

The general term "Protestant" encompasses a whole plethora of different "church denominations" with all sorts of different viewpoints about all sorts of different particulars. Then, there's the fact that even more specific terminology within Protestantism, such as "Baptist" or "Lutheran", still encompasses a plethora of different "church denominations" with all sorts of different viewpoints about all sorts of different particulars. "Protestantism" in general is just one big hosh posh of a mess that can distract away from what truly matters, which is "The Plan™".

D. Are the five items you list above an algorithm or can they be done in a different order, e.g. forgive oneself first and jump out of the block of code?

I think the order that ITN listed them in is pretty sensible (but not a fixed block of code).

E. Your last item in the list above indicates that one must follow the promptings and teachings of Jesus Christ, i.e. be a good person and live a good life, ... but that maxim seems to immediately get tossed out the 1-cubit x 1-cubit window every time, and replaced with "faith is all that matters", i.e. it's only a question of what one believes, which totally nullifies that final item on your list.

He specified "for the Christian" on that one, otherwise I do see where you're coming from here.

 

[IBDaMann]

The biosphere on Earth did not originate in isolation.

Unless it did. Vegas odds are that it did.

It required the physical fine tuning which allowed complex atomic matter to form, ...

False. No random dust cloud needs any permission to form complex matter.

It's mathematically improbable that the physical properties, mathematical parameters, energy balance in the universe just settled on the right values by chance to allow for complex atomic matter, stars, planets to form and organize.

Nope. You are regurgitating what some loser told you to say. When you were bent over furniture, having your opinions reamed into you, you should have asked how that "probability" was somehow determined.

But you didn't, and the opportunity was lost.

The universe that we have was a guarantee.

 

[Cypress]

Unless it did. Vegas odds are that it did.


False. No random dust cloud needs any permission to form complex matter.


Nope. You are regurgitating what some loser told you to say. When you were bent over furniture, having your opinions reamed into you, you should have asked how that "probability" was somehow determined.

But you didn't, and the opportunity was lost.

The universe that we have was a guarantee.

^^^ Shorter version:

"The lawful organization and fine tuning of the universe is...because it is! That's just the way it is!!"

It is an abdication of scientific duty to sweep unresolved questions under the rug, and blurt out "that's just the way it is!!"

Seemingly simple but profoundly complex questions about the deepest mysteries of the universe are almost always invisible and never even occur to the simple minded and barely educated. These seemingly simple questions require a working knowledge of core scientific concepts to begin to appreciate their conceptual depth.

 

[IBDaMann]

One's personal effort ("doing good works") does nothing in terms of receiving salvation.

This is another one where Catholics have the opposite view; they believe that personal effort is all that matters, and that a good person who does good deeds but who has never had faith in Jesus will still go to heaven. This brings me to the parable of the Good Atheist.

The Parable of the Good Atheist​

One day gfm7175 and IBDaMann were sharing an Uber when a terrible traffic accident took their lives and placed them before the righteous judgement of God. gfm7175 noticed that he was standing in a long line that contained many people he knew, even a few from his church, and the line was moving rather quickly, with everybody seemingly getting waved on in. As he looked to his left, he saw that IBDaMann was in a line with a lot of people he did not recognize, and that line was moving quickly as well. gfm7175 remarked "Hey, IBDaMann, you aren't supposed to be here. You were an atheist; you can't get in here." IBDaMann answered "Not in that line, I can't. That's why I'm in the Catholic line. Their policy is that
God will render to every man according to his deeds!" , and I have already been declared a "good" athesit. See? I already got my voucher. " IBDaMann then pointed to the Catholic banner that read "Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" IBDaMann then suggested to gfm7175 that he not be afraid to come to him for some good deeds.

Catholicism has this wrong. The wronged party should absolutely be faced (in addition to facing God). Both Matthew 5 and Matthew 18 make this quite clear.

Absolutely, but Catholics have their business model to consider. I wonder if they are going to bring back indulgences.

I think the order that ITN listed them in is pretty sensible (but not a fixed block of code).

OK, so that would explain why Into the Night didn't write it in Python.

He specified "for the Christian" on that one, otherwise I do see where you're coming from here.

To hedge my bets, I'm going to start an "Adopt a Firmament" program.

 

[ZenMode]

The sky IS full of water.

The sky IS full of water.

Not in a form that needs to be held in place by a physical structure.

Yes you do. You deny it and then quote it!

I deny the claims made by the writers.

Nope. Harry Potter was never represented as a god.

Harry Potter is fictional just as God's are.

No, they didn't. Go learn English, Latin, and Hebrew.

They did. Priests, pastors, etc will say otherwise, for reasons that are obvious, but they did.

 

[ZenMode]

Nothing can be proven, but the most convincing evidence put forth seems to be:

-Something coming from nothing.

I don't believe something came from nothing.

-Order coming from chance and chaos.
-Mathematically rational cosmic organization.
-The improbable fine tuning of the universe.
-The logical inference that life cannot come from non-life.
-The logical inference that the rational cannot come from the irrational.
-The improbability that a universal moral law transcending natural evolutionary requirements would appear by chance.
-The observation that the vast majority of humans ever since the Paleolithic era have perceived a transcendent reality beyond matter and energy. There is no known evolutionary requirement for humans to hold those beliefs.

God of the Gaps.

 

[ZenMode]

The sky IS "full of water" (meaning that it contains water). Did you know that water isn't always in liquid form?

Nah.

Nah. Rain occurs without windows.

We know that....now.

... as a collection of "stories", but you DO deny it as the Word of God.

It can't be the word of God. At least not the Christian god, for two reasons. 1) If it was written/heavily influenced by an all-knowing being, it would much, much better than it is.

The Christian god/Jesus is an all-loving father figure, not the bipolar, hyper emotional, psychopathic god described in the Bible.

The Bible doesn't contain ANY "non-fiction" historical accounts? Nothing at all about the history of the Israelites? Nothing at all about the history of Jesus, or his disciples, etc? None of those people actually existed, and none of those events actually happened? Is that what you're saying?

The relevant parts, the parts that "make" Christianity and Jesus and God legit to believers shouldn't be believed.

When did you last speak to any OT writers? Am I likewise able to speak to them for myself, or do their voices only exist inside of your own mind?

 

[Monad Portal]

^^^ Shorter version:

"The lawful organization and fine tuning of the universe is...because it is! That's just the way it is!!"

It is an abdication of scientific duty to sweep unresolved questions under the rug, and blurt out "that's just the way it is!!"

Seemingly simple but profoundly complex questions about the deepest mysteries of the universe are almost always invisible and never even occur to the simple minded and barely educated. These seemingly simple questions require a working knowledge of core scientific concepts to begin to appreciate their conceptual depth.

nature did it accidentally.

no effort.

 

[Into the Night]

you have not debunked the hadron collider findings.

fuck off idiot.

and then shut the fuck up.

What 'hadron collider findings'?

You can't make anyone shut up.