Does freemasonry still hold influence in government?

[Damocles]

The question posed was whether or not freemasonry has an influence on government. Strange how that particular question produces waving autumn fields of straw men.

Yes. Freemasonry DOES influence government. It influences government, police, business and more important than all, the judiciary. All you need to do, when faced with a member of any of those organisations is ask the question. Are you a freemason or a member of any other secret organisation? Freemasons are prohibited from denying their membership. They will simply answer indirectly.
You should NEVER accept ANY judge, jury or lawyer who will not state that he is not a member. You should also ask, if a plaintiff or defendant in any case, whether the opposition has affiliations to freemasonry. In most jurisdictions you have a right to apply to be heard by a different court. You must do that.
No freemason will EVER condemn a fellow mason. They say that they act within the law and so they do, but there is a huge difference between acting within the law and and being honest. It's the 'whole truth' they avoid.
Governments all over the world are influenced by freemasonry. Freemasonry in government will always promote the innocence of its members who are very often big business.
The law allows one man to fight another for justice but it does not allow one small man to fight against a large corporation. Freemasons will do anything, literally anything, to prevent an even playing field.

I don't know any Freemasons that answer indirectly. Freemasons are not a "Secret" organization. The buildings are well marked, membership is known, most Freemasons have stickers, etc. proclaiming who they are on their vehicles. Now the organization has some "secrets" that are so secretive that even at the beginnings of the organization the news sheets would joke about the "secrets that are not secrets"... But there is nothing hidden about the organization.

As for whether they have power, I am sure there are some Freemasons somewhere that hold some positions in government, but I have seen no evidence of the organization itself holding any massive power... But that might just be the fact that all I am is a former Master of the Lodge, and have never been a member of any appendant bodies or any further than that.

There was a time back in the day when it really counted for something, but those days are long gone. After the Morgan Affair and the subsequent anti-Freemason movement in the US Freemasonry really lost most influence it may have had. Now the Morgan Affair shouldn't be confused with "the reason" the Anti-Mason Party was formed, it was just the catalyst, the "last straw" so to speak. However, it was effective, being a Freemason after the Morgan Affair was not thought of as a "good thing" and membership declined massively. It wasn't until after the World Wars that membership began another increase, it is my theory that war veterans with PTSD wanted places to meet and feel a brotherhood...

Anyway. I would say, it is my experience that the Freemasons don't hold any power in government. But as I said, it isn't like I know everybody in the fraternity. It's possible that some may have influence.

 

[Lowaicue]

I don't know any Freemasons that answer indirectly. Freemasons are not a "Secret" organization. The buildings are well marked, membership is known, most Freemasons have stickers, etc. proclaiming who they are on their vehicles. Now the organization has some "secrets" that are so secretive that even at the beginnings of the organization the news sheets would joke about the "secrets that are not secrets"... But there is nothing hidden about the organization.

As for whether they have power, I am sure there are some Freemasons somewhere that hold some positions in government, but I have seen no evidence of the organization itself holding any massive power... But that might just be the fact that all I am is a former Master of the Lodge, and have never been a member of any appendant bodies or any further than that.

There was a time back in the day when it really counted for something, but those days are long gone. After the Morgan Affair and the subsequent anti-Freemason movement in the US Freemasonry really lost most influence it may have had. Now the Morgan Affair shouldn't be confused with "the reason" the Anti-Mason Party was formed, it was just the catalyst, the "last straw" so to speak. However, it was effective, being a Freemason after the Morgan Affair was not thought of as a "good thing" and membership declined massively. It wasn't until after the World Wars that membership began another increase, it is my theory that war veterans with PTSD wanted places to meet and feel a brotherhood...

Anyway. I would say, it is my experience that the Freemasons don't hold any power in government. But as I said, it isn't like I know everybody in the fraternity. It's possible that some may have influence.

It may well be that Freemasonry in the US is somewhat different from elsewhere. However your answer above is exactly what one would expect as a non mason and exactly what one should expect as a mason.
If I were to tell you that I have no sectrets, what conclusion would you draw?

 

[Airstrip One]

In the US the following were masons:
George Washington
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
James Garfield
William McKinley
Theodore Roosevelt
William Taft
Warren Harding
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry S Truman
Lyndon Johnson
Gerald Ford

Interesting mix. From the first five, you can see the two greatest presidents, followed by three of the worst.

BTW, you did insinuate to us that ALL masons are corrupt when you earlier stated that no Masonic jurer would ever permit a fellow Mason to be convicted of a crime.

 

[Liberty]

?

So why did I cheer when Obama was elected? It certainly wasn't about him, it was about us.
While we still have a long way to go, at least we as a people (some of us that is) elected a black man president, even if he was part of the royal family.

I don't know.

Why did you cheer when Obama was elected?

And also,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, who is us?

 

[USFREEDOM911]

I don't know any Freemasons that answer indirectly. Freemasons are not a "Secret" organization. The buildings are well marked, membership is known, most Freemasons have stickers, etc. proclaiming who they are on their vehicles. Now the organization has some "secrets" that are so secretive that even at the beginnings of the organization the news sheets would joke about the "secrets that are not secrets"... But there is nothing hidden about the organization.

As for whether they have power, I am sure there are some Freemasons somewhere that hold some positions in government, but I have seen no evidence of the organization itself holding any massive power... But that might just be the fact that all I am is a former Master of the Lodge, and have never been a member of any appendant bodies or any further than that.

There was a time back in the day when it really counted for something, but those days are long gone. After the Morgan Affair and the subsequent anti-Freemason movement in the US Freemasonry really lost most influence it may have had. Now the Morgan Affair shouldn't be confused with "the reason" the Anti-Mason Party was formed, it was just the catalyst, the "last straw" so to speak. However, it was effective, being a Freemason after the Morgan Affair was not thought of as a "good thing" and membership declined massively. It wasn't until after the World Wars that membership began another increase, it is my theory that war veterans with PTSD wanted places to meet and feel a brotherhood...

Anyway. I would say, it is my experience that the Freemasons don't hold any power in government. But as I said, it isn't like I know everybody in the fraternity. It's possible that some may have influence.

That was an excellent reply.
Take a hundred thousand or two, from the "secret fund".

 

[Lowaicue]

Interesting mix. From the first five, you can see the two greatest presidents, followed by three of the worst.

BTW, you did insinuate to us that ALL masons are corrupt when you earlier stated that no Masonic jurer would ever permit a fellow Mason to be convicted of a crime.

Tell me then, to whom is a freemason loyal above all others? Discounting whatever he calls his god. Don't tell me the law of the land because that has no bearing whatsoever upon the personal opinions of a juror or of anyone else.

I don't think I said all masons were corrupt, but we are surely all aware that wherever there is an elite it will do what is necessary to retain its power and wherever there are riches there is someone scheming to change its ownership. A mason juror must, of course, follow his conscience. I doubt that any man, mason or not, would let a convicted paedophile walk free, but should the be an argument over property where judge, jury and plaintiff were all masons the likelihood would be that freemasonry woul have a considerable affect upon the outcome.
I have put this to masons on many occasions and none will deny it. My own father bore witness to the way things work.
I note that you are a Knight of St. Columba. You really cannot compare the two. Not even the Katinians or Opus Dei can hold a candle to the international brotherhood of masons.
One senior police officer here referred to masons as 'white triads'.
A barrister aquaintance laughed at the suggestion of corrupt practices and said, with no shame, 'Which side would you rather be on?'. I told him honesty had no sides.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Tell me then, to whom is a freemason loyal above all others? Discounting whatever he calls his god. Don't tell me the law of the land because that has no bearing whatsoever upon the personal opinions of a juror or of anyone else.

I don't think I said all masons were corrupt, but we are surely all aware that wherever there is an elite it will do what is necessary to retain its power and wherever there are riches there is someone scheming to change its ownership. A mason juror must, of course, follow his conscience. I doubt that any man, mason or not, would let a convicted paedophile walk free, but should the be an argument over property where judge, jury and plaintiff were all masons the likelihood would be that freemasonry woul have a considerable affect upon the outcome.
I have put this to masons on many occasions and none will deny it. My own father bore witness to the way things work.
I note that you are a Knight of St. Columba. You really cannot compare the two. Not even the Katinians or Opus Dei can hold a candle to the international brotherhood of masons.
One senior police officer here referred to masons as 'white triads'.
A barrister aquaintance laughed at the suggestion of corrupt practices and said, with no shame, 'Which side would you rather be on?'. I told him honesty had no sides.

perhaps you should know that there is no master lodge for the u s of a or of the world, only state grand lodges that have jurisdiction over regular lodges in a given state - each grand lodge is responsible for the adherence of regular lodges to the rules of the grand lodge - how lodges in other states or nations conduct themselves is not known to me

if i should wish to visit a lodge in another jurisdiction, i would have to check if the lodges in that other jurisdiction are 'regular'

the masonic fraternity (this includes various other branches within the fraternity) in the state of california adheres to a general set of rules that i am proud to adhere to, however, as with any group, the occasional bad apple may be admitted, but i can assure you that they would not be following the oaths they made when they were raised to the sublime degree of master mason

as for the master masons that participated in our revolution, they were able to insert some of freedoms promulgated by free masonry in to our constitution and oaths of office

it saddens me to hear of the corruption that you refer to and i will not say that some members of the fraternity in the u s of a are not corrupt, however, when they are discovered, there is a means for rooting them out

 

[Lowaicue]

perhaps you should know that there is no master lodge for the u s of a or of the world, only state grand lodges that have jurisdiction over regular lodges in a given state - each grand lodge is responsible for the adherence of regular lodges to the rules of the grand lodge - how lodges in other states or nations conduct themselves is not known to me

if i should wish to visit a lodge in another jurisdiction, i would have to check if the lodges in that other jurisdiction are 'regular'

the masonic fraternity (this includes various other branches within the fraternity) in the state of california adheres to a general set of rules that i am proud to adhere to, however, as with any group, the occasional bad apple may be admitted, but i can assure you that they would not be following the oaths they made when they were raised to the sublime degree of master mason

as for the master masons that participated in our revolution, they were able to insert some of freedoms promulgated by free masonry in to our constitution and oaths of office

it saddens me to hear of the corruption that you refer to and i will not say that some members of the fraternity in the u s of a are not corrupt, however, when they are discovered, there is a means for rooting them out

I am aware of the relationships between the various lodges and I am aware that central tenets of behaviour and belief exist.
Tell me though, would you 'root out' a senior officer? Would you root him out if he was senior and a senior government official? Would you root out a judge who allowed his membership to colour his judgement? If you honestly would in California I would suggest you are in a minority. Can you say, with all the oaths and punishments at your disposal that members of a wealthy elite are no more likely to be corrupt than ordinary members of the public?
Needless to say I have not come new to this subject.
Indeed when assisting my father to legally disown and disinherit my brother, for using his lodge for completely illegal and fraudulent purposes, I visited several solicitors offices. At each I asked the question before introducing myself, 'Are you, or is any partner in your firm, a member of the Freemasons?' Not one solicitor found the question amusing or in anyway insulting save one who sidestepped the issue and saw my heels rapidly disappear from his premises.
One learned gentleman actually suggested that more people should ask the question so the legal profession could be cleansed. This occurred in a small town in the southern half of England.
I would submit that if Freemasonry has as much corruption within its ranks or more than the general population in the UK and HK, that the likelihood of the same occurring in the US is very high.
Further, with the oaths of loyalty and the opportunities for self promotion, it would be almost impossible to suggest that Freemasonry does not influence governments.
I am glad you say that California is 'clean'. But I have to remind you that every mason would answer the same of his lodge and no lodge would seriously entertain complaints about members from ordinary members of the public.

 

[Lowaicue]

I am aware of the relationships between the various lodges and I am aware that central tenets of behaviour and belief exist.
Tell me though, would you 'root out' a senior officer? Would you root him out if he was senior and a senior government official? Would you root out a judge who allowed his membership to colour his judgement? If you honestly would in California I would suggest you are in a minority. Can you say, with all the oaths and punishments at your disposal that members of a wealthy elite are no more likely to be corrupt than ordinary members of the public?
Needless to say I have not come new to this subject.
Indeed when assisting my father to legally disown and disinherit my brother, for using his lodge for completely illegal and fraudulent purposes, I visited several solicitors offices. At each I asked the question before introducing myself, 'Are you, or is any partner in your firm, a member of the Freemasons?' Not one solicitor found the question amusing or in anyway insulting save one who sidestepped the issue and saw my heels rapidly disappear from his premises.
One learned gentleman actually suggested that more people should ask the question so the legal profession could be cleansed. This occurred in a small town in the southern half of England.
I would submit that if Freemasonry has as much corruption within its ranks or more than the general population in the UK and HK, that the likelihood of the same occurring in the US is very high.
Further, with the oaths of loyalty and the opportunities for self promotion, it would be almost impossible to suggest that Freemasonry does not influence governments.
I am glad you say that California is 'clean'. But I have to remind you that every mason would answer the same of his lodge and no lodge would seriously entertain complaints about members from ordinary members of the public.

As an addendum. The extract below concerns the gentleman who supplied the 'pen gun' which I have seen in the offices of the ICAC and this is the man, a member of the HK Freemasons who visited my house and who bragged that the law would never touch him. And laughed when he denied, to a colleague, the pen gun affair with the words 'I just gave him a pen!'
Alledgedly!

Hong Kong’s government lost its appeal to reinstate a conviction against lawyer Kevin Egan for perverting the course of justice, Radio Television Hong Kong reported today, citing proceedings at the Court of Final Appeal.
June 28 2010
Egan is on trial before Deputy Judge Jones and a jury after pleading not guilty to transferring his Australian passport to Reid and possessing a pen gun without a licence.
SCMP Jan 29. 1993

He was never 'rooted out'.

 

[Damocles]

It may well be that Freemasonry in the US is somewhat different from elsewhere. However your answer above is exactly what one would expect as a non mason and exactly what one should expect as a mason.
If I were to tell you that I have no sectrets, what conclusion would you draw?

I didn't say we had no secrets. I spoke of the difference between a secret society and a society with some secrets (and ones that are not well hidden). A secret society does not meet in well-marked buildings and have stickers on their vehicles proclaiming their membership. They meet in secret not in buildings with big signs telling people when they meet and who they are....

The secrets of freemasonry are rather simple and not very astonishing. Simple ways to tell if a person really is a Freemason or just some dude telling you he is, that's pretty much it.

Anyway, there is a basic difference between a "secret society" and a Fraternity that advertises their existence.

Everybody has some secrets, that's life. Freemasonry is a fraternity, not any more secretive or "dastardly" than any other fraternity at your college and less so than most.

 

[Airstrip One]

Tell me then, to whom is a freemason loyal above all others? Discounting whatever he calls his god. Don't tell me the law of the land because that has no bearing whatsoever upon the personal opinions of a juror or of anyone else.

I don't think I said all masons were corrupt, but we are surely all aware that wherever there is an elite it will do what is necessary to retain its power and wherever there are riches there is someone scheming to change its ownership. A mason juror must, of course, follow his conscience. I doubt that any man, mason or not, would let a convicted paedophile walk free, but should the be an argument over property where judge, jury and plaintiff were all masons the likelihood would be that freemasonry woul have a considerable affect upon the outcome.
I have put this to masons on many occasions and none will deny it. My own father bore witness to the way things work.
I note that you are a Knight of St. Columba. You really cannot compare the two. Not even the Katinians or Opus Dei can hold a candle to the international brotherhood of masons.
One senior police officer here referred to masons as 'white triads'.
A barrister aquaintance laughed at the suggestion of corrupt practices and said, with no shame, 'Which side would you rather be on?'. I told him honesty had no sides.

Other than to assure you that I am affiliated with a different brotherhood, I pointed out my Knights membership to make a point. The Knights and Masons have a long history of antagonism, as a result of the Freemasons longstanding anti-Catholicism. I figure it makes my defense of the Masons less suspected of prejudice in their favour. We do get along nowadays, though, and my Knights Council celebrates every St. Patrick's Day with an order of nearby Shriners, each hosting the event every other year.

 

[Damocles]

Other than to assure you that I am affiliated with a different brotherhood, I pointed out my Knights membership to make a point. The Knights and Masons have a long history of antagonism, as a result of the Freemasons longstanding anti-Catholicism. I figure it makes my defense of the Masons less suspected of prejudice in their favour. We do get along nowadays, though, and my Knights Council celebrates every St. Patrick's Day with an order of nearby Shriners, each hosting the event every other year.

The Freemasons are not Anti-Catholic, dude. The "antagonism" comes from the Pope's Decree that you cannot be a Freemason and take communion, nothing in Freemasonry stops a Catholic from becoming a Freemason, and in fact there are quite a few Catholic Freemasons. In the US many of the Priests ignore that edict...

 

[Airstrip One]

Yeah, I've noticed an increasing amount of Catholic Masons.

 

[wiseones2cents]

Yeah, I've noticed an increasing amount of Catholic Masons.

Hmmmmm Thanks. I will investigate. I noticed how everyone ignored my proof that freemasons still have influence in US government. After the Morgan Affair the Freemasons had to go underground and opened up secret societies like the skull and bones from Yale all over the world.

 

[Airstrip One]

Skull and Bones is a secret college fraternity, not a masonic order.

 

[Damocles]

Hmmmmm Thanks. I will investigate. I noticed how everyone ignored my proof that freemasons still have influence in US government. After the Morgan Affair the Freemasons had to go underground and opened up secret societies like the skull and bones from Yale all over the world.

Skull and Bones are not Freemasons and have existed as long as Yale has existed. Just saying stuff doesn't make it true.

 

[wiseones2cents]

That is nothing. You want to see some crazy shit, check this out. Then the next time someone talks about oligarchy or aristocracy, you will know they are onto something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_relationships_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

Not only are all the rpresidents related to each other, but they are all decended from the european royal family as well.
Furthermore, most of their wives can also trace their roots back to the european royal family.

If you want to get real serious about it of course, you will find that europes ruling or royal family decends from egyptian pharohs.

Now it is true that if we go back 27 generations, we are all related (yes bravo, even you and black folks have common ancestors),
but in spite of this, if you do the math, you will find that only 1 in 4 presidents should share their family trees.

Is this a coincidence? Far from it. The odds are so astronmicaly opposed to such a circumstance that it cannot be described as coincidence.

The really interesting thing; In any given race for president, the candidate with the highest percentage of royal blood, (nearest in line for the throne)
wins.
Yes, this means that the candidates are in the family too. Kerry, McCain and even Palin are all cousins.

So, how is that democracy thing working out for ya?

Interesting more of that blue blood theory. It is possible but I think it may not always be the case, but I believe they are ALL tied to some sort of gigantic global syndicate that freemason type societies are all a part of.

Even Bill Clinton belonged to a group that was an extension of freemasonry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_clinton

The Phi Beta Kappa Society was founded on December 5, 1776 at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, and established the precedent for naming American college societies after the initial letters of a secret Greek motto.

The group consisted of students who frequented the Raleigh Tavern as a common meeting area off the college campus (a persistent story maintains that a Masonic lodge also met at this tavern, but the Freemasons actually gathered at a different building in Williamsburg).[8] It is true that ten of the original members later became Freemasons

 

[Damocles]

Interesting more of that blue blood theory. It is possible but I think it may not always be the case, but I believe they are ALL tied to some sort of gigantic global syndicate that freemason type societies are all a part of.

Even Bill Clinton belonged to a group that was an extension of freemasonry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_clinton

The Phi Beta Kappa Society was founded on December 5, 1776 at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, and established the precedent for naming American college societies after the initial letters of a secret Greek motto.

The group consisted of students who frequented the Raleigh Tavern as a common meeting area off the college campus (a persistent story maintains that a Masonic lodge also met at this tavern, but the Freemasons actually gathered at a different building in Williamsburg).[8] It is true that ten of the original members later became Freemasons

Bill Clinton belonged to a youth group associated with the Freemasons. It's like the boy scouts and the military. He never progressed and became a Freemason, believe me there is a huge difference. It's basically like saying somebody was a member of the military because they were a boy scout.

 

[Lowaicue]

I didn't say we had no secrets. I spoke of the difference between a secret society and a society with some secrets (and ones that are not well hidden). A secret society does not meet in well-marked buildings and have stickers on their vehicles proclaiming their membership. They meet in secret not in buildings with big signs telling people when they meet and who they are....

The secrets of freemasonry are rather simple and not very astonishing. Simple ways to tell if a person really is a Freemason or just some dude telling you he is, that's pretty much it.

Anyway, there is a basic difference between a "secret society" and a Fraternity that advertises their existence.

Everybody has some secrets, that's life. Freemasonry is a fraternity, not any more secretive or "dastardly" than any other fraternity at your college and less so than most.

Whether it is a 'secret' society or not does not alter the fact that it is extremely likely that Freemasons still have influence in governments. Not just the US government but many world governments. Masons are past masters at steering discussion away from the facts. Whether Catholics can or cannot be members is of no relevance to the subject. Whether Freemasonry is or is not a secret organisation is, similarly, of no concern.
My concern and the concern of every honest man who believes that people should be treated fairly and that every man should have equal access to government and the law, is that there is evidence that Freemasonry (in general) has influenced governments and there is no evidence to show that the practice has stopped.
Neither you nor Schadenfreude has addressed the main points of contention, preferring to do exactly as you have been taught and take the spotlight away from the indefensible and onto something that can genuinely be argued. Catholics, secrecy, not all freemasons..., some rotten eggs, etc etc. Damo, I've seen it all before, again and again and again.
I have shown sufficient evidence of corruption and sharp practice outside the US. If similar statements were made about international corporations (who give autonomy or semi autonomy, to their overseas organisations), I suspect that you and all other masons would be prepared to agree that the likelihood of more than one bad apple was extremely high and the likelihood of rot throughout the box was higher than we should find acceptable.
Yet the answers we receive from masons are always the same, as if written by some central controller. I guess rather than circle your wagons you form them into a square.

 

[Damocles]

Whether it is a 'secret' society or not does not alter the fact that it is extremely likely that Freemasons still have influence in governments. Not just the US government but many world governments. Masons are past masters at steering discussion away from the facts. Whether Catholics can or cannot be members is of no relevance to the subject. Whether Freemasonry is or is not a secret organisation is, similarly, of no concern.
My concern and the concern of every honest man who believes that people should be treated fairly and that every man should have equal access to government and the law, is that there is evidence that Freemasonry (in general) has influenced governments and there is no evidence to show that the practice has stopped.
Neither you nor Schadenfreude has addressed the main points of contention, preferring to do exactly as you have been taught and take the spotlight away from the indefensible and onto something that can genuinely be argued. Catholics, secrecy, not all freemasons..., some rotten eggs, etc etc. Damo, I've seen it all before, again and again and again.
I have shown sufficient evidence of corruption and sharp practice outside the US. If similar statements were made about international corporations (who give autonomy or semi autonomy, to their overseas organisations), I suspect that you and all other masons would be prepared to agree that the likelihood of more than one bad apple was extremely high and the likelihood of rot throughout the box was higher than we should find acceptable.
Yet the answers we receive from masons are always the same, as if written by some central controller. I guess rather than circle your wagons you form them into a square.

You have shown no evidence of any "corruption", you have made unsubstantiated accusations and told us to ask cops if they were Freemasons. That's silliness. You've given no real evidence of power. Nor have I tried to prove otherwise, I've simply given you my experience. You assign some "evil" purpose to that and try to make it seem like I am trying to "hide" something by simply telling you what I have seen and what I know directly.