PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
and look where that got us......
Christmas has a substantial secular component in the U.S.: BUT !! Q ...
- Thread starter sear
- Start date
and look where that got us......
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
you're in luck.....everyone gets to choose......
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
none of which tell the reader who you are responding to......you do extra work to make us do extra work......that's why we don't like you.......
?????....you AREN'T doing it, so obviously......
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
did anyone ever claim you didn't, dumbfuck?......
You ask "why" questions...your answers are in his Word. No human being's "educated, intellectual" answers or opinions will suffice. Go to the Source for your answers. Pray and ask God to give you faith to understand and believe his Word...all your answers are there...at the foot of the cross.
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 5:9
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Jer 29:13
**************************************************************************************************
From Job
The Lord Speaks
Chapter 38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3
Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8
“Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9
when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10
when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11
when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12
“Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13
that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15
The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16
“Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17
Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18
Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19
“What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20
Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21
Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22
“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23
which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24
What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25
Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26
to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27
to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28
Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29
From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30
when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31
“Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32
Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33
Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?
34
“Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35
Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36
Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37
Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38
when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39
“Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40
when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41
Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
Chapter 39 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2
Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3
They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4
Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5
“Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6
I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7
It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8
It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.
9
“Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10
Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11
Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12
Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?
13
“The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14
She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15
unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16
She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17
for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18
Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
19
“Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20
Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21
It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22
It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23
The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24
In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25
At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26
“Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27
Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28
It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29
From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30
Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”
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From Job
Chapter 40 The Lord said to Job:
2
“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:
4
“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5
I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7
“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8
“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9
Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11
Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12
look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13
Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14
Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15
“Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16
What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17
Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18
Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19
It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20
The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21
Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22
The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23
A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24
Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?
Chapter 41 [a]“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2
Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3
Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4
Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5
Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6
Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7
Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8
If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9
Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10
No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11
Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12
“I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13
Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?
14
Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15
Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16
each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17
They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18
Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19
Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20
Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21
Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22
Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23
The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24
Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25
When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26
The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27
Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28
Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29
A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30
Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31
It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32
It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33
Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34
It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”
Chapter 42 Then Job replied to the Lord:
2
“I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3
You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
4
“You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5
My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6
Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”
Chapter 40 The Lord said to Job:
2
“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:
4
“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5
I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7
“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8
“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9
Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11
Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12
look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13
Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14
Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15
“Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16
What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17
Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18
Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19
It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20
The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21
Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22
The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23
A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24
Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?
Chapter 41 [a]“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2
Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3
Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4
Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5
Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6
Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7
Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8
If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9
Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10
No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11
Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12
“I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13
Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?
14
Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15
Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16
each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17
They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18
Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19
Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20
Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21
Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22
Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23
The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24
Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25
When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26
The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27
Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28
Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29
A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30
Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31
It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32
It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33
Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34
It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”
Chapter 42 Then Job replied to the Lord:
2
“I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3
You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
4
“You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5
My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6
Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”
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Don't play the victim here. If you were ignorant before, you are no more. You've asked your questions and have been answered. You have had the Lord's salvation plan presented to you. You now own your own judgment. Your "honesty" is required now of the Lord...not at the judgment seat since the Lord has known the condition of your heart all along. It's too late then to try and explain your intellectual thesis on your version of "honesty" of supposed ignorance. There are no bargaining chips provided to you at the Judgment. The words of your own mouth will have judged you. He knows now of your refusal to bow you heart, your head and your knee. The Lord God is Holy and he will not be mocked. Today is the day of salvation while you still breathe.
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
Gal 6:7
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.
Heb 9:27
Now is the acceptable time; look, now is the day of salvation.
2Cor 6:2
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Rom 3:23
All of us sinners would be "more at home" in hell, but for the mercy and grace of God we can call Heaven our home. Jesus Christ, Son of God came to his earth to seek and save the lost...next time He is coming in judgment.
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I'm inclined to agree.
It's that knucklehead Pascal's idea. I think it's silly.
It wouldn't occur to me.
How can an autonomous, self-driven sentient be a victim?
Indeed!
"Answered with humans opinions no more authoritative than mine. Some of that opinion is religious, some is secular. You think I should ignore completely the latter group, and accept unreservedly the latter?
I'm sophisticated enough to know, binaries are not as common as some might wish to believe.
Spectra may be as much or more common; but an inconvenience to some.
For over half a century. This sales pitch from the religion bidness is literally as old as the hills, and at least as familiar.
That was my starting point, while I was a teenager (I'm now on Social Security) if not before.
I have never not been at peace with it. But thanks for your accompaniment & validating my long-held position.
Not even Shaq wears size 142.
Lord knows, I've made my choice generations ago.
This is the most excellent spiritual guidance I can ever remember having received. BRILLIANT!! I appreciate that most sincerely.
And you are right. That is PRECISELY what I do!
Instead of me going to the Flat Earth story books:
"These [Biblical] books existed in the oral tradition for hundreds of thousands of years. They finally wrote them down in Aramaic, later translated into Greek, & then Latin, and finally English, hundreds and hundreds of revisions: and this is supposed to be absolute direct word of God." actor John Fugelsang
I go DIRECTLY to the source!
It wouldn't occur to me to consult a conspicuous artifact for such divine inspiration.
It wouldn't even stand up in a U.S. court of law.
Any witness that begins a sentence "And then he said ..." would be subject to objection. It violates the "hear / say" rule for which there are very few exceptions.
Well?!
What's the difference? "The Bible says ..."?
No. If "hear / say" isn't good enough for Judge Wolfson, it's not a solid enough basis upon which I can build my metaphysical world-view.
When I want to know about the Creator, I go to CreaTION, the forest, the beach, a sylvan meadow, or my own pond. I know god directly through god's manifold good works; not through ancient story books.
Again, many thanks. That is one SUPERB insight you have provided us. I intend to continue to follow it.
In this season to be jolly, can we take an ecumenical look at a puzzling religious question?
Maybe the problem is with what you believe to be evil?
J #109
Perhaps.
But let us be clear. I'm not Epicurus. I'm sear.
I don't define such terms.
Instead I rely very heavily on the OED & AHD for their authoritative insights.
god is the angel of good.
The devil is the angel of evil.
I don't have a PhD.
So perhaps I should defer.
But should we question the legitimacy of "zero"?
I've never blundered around in the dark of night, and stumbled over a "zero".
BUT !!
Does zero not remain an exceedingly practical numerical value with applications in science, technology, banking, and even chronology / history?
Perhaps.
But let us be clear. I'm not Epicurus. I'm sear.
I don't define such terms.
Instead I rely very heavily on the OED & AHD for their authoritative insights.
A religious premise we should not overlook.
god is the angel of good.
The devil is the angel of evil.
My philosophy professor once stated in class that he doubted whether there was any such thing as "truth".
I don't have a PhD.
So perhaps I should defer.
But should we question the legitimacy of "zero"?
I've never blundered around in the dark of night, and stumbled over a "zero".
BUT !!
Does zero not remain an exceedingly practical numerical value with applications in science, technology, banking, and even chronology / history?
Lightbringer
Loves Me Some Souls
It looks like there are some who hate the idea of humans having free will.
I don't think they hate it, I think the idea frightens them
USFREEDOM911
MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN
" I think the idea frightens them " #111
That would seem to me to be implausible in either case.
Non-believers wouldn't fear Hell, if they don't believe in it.
And believers wouldn't fear Hell if they believe their faith is an automatic "Get Out Of Hell Free" card. *
Fear is the handmaiden of coercion and misdirection.
"The coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave but one" attributed to Ernest Hemingway
The bottom line on that is:
"When you suffer, you should examine whether you can do anything about it.
If you can, there is no need to worry.
If you can not, there is also no need to worry." TV character Buddhist monk
* "Astrology is I think the most feeble minded of the superstitions, and sinister only in the sense that it's the most solipsistic, just as the religious fool believes that he is the object of Gods creation, that he is so loved and created for a purpose, and even supervised at all times, that's how much he counts. By the way this is what's known as modesty among Christians, I don't understand it." Christopher Hitchens '98 CSPAN
That would seem to me to be implausible in either case.
Non-believers wouldn't fear Hell, if they don't believe in it.
And believers wouldn't fear Hell if they believe their faith is an automatic "Get Out Of Hell Free" card. *
Fear is the handmaiden of coercion and misdirection.
"The coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave but one" attributed to Ernest Hemingway
The bottom line on that is:
"When you suffer, you should examine whether you can do anything about it.
If you can, there is no need to worry.
If you can not, there is also no need to worry." TV character Buddhist monk
* "Astrology is I think the most feeble minded of the superstitions, and sinister only in the sense that it's the most solipsistic, just as the religious fool believes that he is the object of Gods creation, that he is so loved and created for a purpose, and even supervised at all times, that's how much he counts. By the way this is what's known as modesty among Christians, I don't understand it." Christopher Hitchens '98 CSPAN
Lightbringer
Loves Me Some Souls
We weren't talking about Hell idiot.
Lightbringer
Loves Me Some Souls
The first thing you need to do is track a conversation back correctly you dumbass prog bitch.
Lightbringer
Loves Me Some Souls
OK Mr. Logic, make your play.
#116
Right.
That's why that's what I did.
That's how I made the titanic quantum intellectual, conceptual leap all the way from the counterpart to "free will", the term you used in #111, which has more than one name, but for this conversation we can call "predestination".
And by definition "Hell" is that which is to be most feared; much worse than an IRS audit.
Please try to keep up. I'm spelling this out in baby steps so simple even you should be able to follow.
And name calling does not answer the inquiry. I deduce from your refusal that you can't.
PROVE ME WRONG !!
Right.
That's why that's what I did.
That's how I made the titanic quantum intellectual, conceptual leap all the way from the counterpart to "free will", the term you used in #111, which has more than one name, but for this conversation we can call "predestination".
And by definition "Hell" is that which is to be most feared; much worse than an IRS audit.
Please try to keep up. I'm spelling this out in baby steps so simple even you should be able to follow.
I'm flattered to have the pet name. But you can call me "sear".
And name calling does not answer the inquiry. I deduce from your refusal that you can't.
PROVE ME WRONG !!
#117
It's more complicated than that.
We are discussing populations literally of billions of autonomous individuals.
When making blanket statistical assessments of diverse populations that size, the assessments must be quite vague to not be inaccurate.
For decades I was considered an atheist.
I'm an agnostic.
"Atheism" addresses what one believes (or disbelieves).
"Agnosticism" is simply a confession of ignorance.
What I believe or disbelieve is so boring, I can barely even contemplate it myself. Why would I share it with others? For the thrill of boring them too?
HERE'S THE PROBLEM:
Agnostics and atheists aren't trying to dictate to others.
- It's the religionists that cause mainly fish fry to be the main dish available at their favorite restaurant on Friday.
- Agnostics and atheists are not the ones that bang the "LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION" and "ABORTION IS MURDER" gong.
The irony on that one is; we're pro-choice. We defend THEIR right to choose. If they don't want abortions, they don't have to have any.
Yet while they're the beneficiaries of our tolerance, they simultaneously try to inflict their religious delusions on us.
- Similar deal in NYS. They're the ones that made it illegal to buy a 6 pack, or a bottle of wine between 2:AM and noon on Sunday.
- They're the ones that tell lies like:
"... changing the definition of marriage would undermine the family structure." U.S. President Bush (younger)
It's the moralistic religionists that push for those things, and yet others like religious group prayer in U.S. government schools.
And so that they don't undermine their own religious freedom, and ours; they push, we push back.
But pretending it's the agnostics that are the aggressors is absolute lunacy! We wouldn't have anything to push back against if it wasn't for them!
It's more complicated than that.
We are discussing populations literally of billions of autonomous individuals.
When making blanket statistical assessments of diverse populations that size, the assessments must be quite vague to not be inaccurate.
For decades I was considered an atheist.
I'm an agnostic.
"Atheism" addresses what one believes (or disbelieves).
"Agnosticism" is simply a confession of ignorance.
What I believe or disbelieve is so boring, I can barely even contemplate it myself. Why would I share it with others? For the thrill of boring them too?
HERE'S THE PROBLEM:
Agnostics and atheists aren't trying to dictate to others.
- It's the religionists that cause mainly fish fry to be the main dish available at their favorite restaurant on Friday.
- Agnostics and atheists are not the ones that bang the "LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION" and "ABORTION IS MURDER" gong.
The irony on that one is; we're pro-choice. We defend THEIR right to choose. If they don't want abortions, they don't have to have any.
Yet while they're the beneficiaries of our tolerance, they simultaneously try to inflict their religious delusions on us.
- Similar deal in NYS. They're the ones that made it illegal to buy a 6 pack, or a bottle of wine between 2:AM and noon on Sunday.
- They're the ones that tell lies like:
"... changing the definition of marriage would undermine the family structure." U.S. President Bush (younger)
It's the moralistic religionists that push for those things, and yet others like religious group prayer in U.S. government schools.
And so that they don't undermine their own religious freedom, and ours; they push, we push back.
But pretending it's the agnostics that are the aggressors is absolute lunacy! We wouldn't have anything to push back against if it wasn't for them!