CA Prop. 8 shot down

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Nope. Did you run out of stupid arguments? Nothing left but allegations of being a bigot?

1) It is not an allegation. It is a fact that you are a bigot. The evidence on this thread alone shows that.

2) You have not stated one thing that refutes my comments on the need for rights given to married straight couples (inheritance, visitation, etc...) to also be provided to gay couples. Every instance of WHY you proclaim straight couples need them can be applied to gay couples as well. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Procreation has NOTHING to do with those rights. NOTHING.
 
I would say yes because preventing them from marrying would likely be viewed as a restriction on their freedom of religion.

And these couples that know they cannot procreate, as in the woman who had a hystorectomy, should they get all the gov't benefits that comes from this institution designed strictly because of teh ability to procreate?
 
???? Cant imagine what would lead you to think that. The idea is to get the children with their biological mother and father. Cant be done in the case of a lesbian couple.

The idea that the entire institution of marriage is all about kids being raised only by biological parents is ridiculous. And since divorced parents, step-parents, and adoptive parents all get the same benefits of being married, your claim is bogus.
 
dixon76710;917657[B said:
]......................But as Skinner, Loving, and Zablocki indicate, marriage is traditionally linked to procreation and survival of the human race. Heterosexual couples are the only couples who can produce biological offspring of the couple....[/B]And the link between opposite-sex marriage and procreation is not defeated by the fact that the law allows opposite-sex marriage regardless of a couple’s willingness or ability to procreate. The facts that all opposite-sex couples do not have children and that single-sex couples raise children and have children with third party assistance or through adoption do not mean that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples lacks a rational basis. Such over- or under-inclusiveness does not defeat finding a rational basis....
http://www.courts.wa.gov/newsinfo/co.../759341opn.pdf .

The impetus behind marriage today has changed significantly from what it started out to be. If you want to go back to that original idea of marriage, so be it, but you will be hard pressed to find anyone willing to take the steps to do so. Not since marital privacy was recognized.

You see, marriage used to be all about procreation. But then we heterosexuals decided we wanted more privacy and less government intrusion into marriage. We did away with the majority of the aspects of the marriage contract that were associated exclusively with procreation... and we're working on getting rid of the one remaining obligation (unless, of course, you can think of another)... assumed paternity. Once that is gone, there will be nothing in the marriage contract (which legally defines what marriage is in this country) that relates exclusively to procreation. The government's interest in procreation has been replaced, and more importantly in my mind, by an interest in raising children in marriage regardless of how they got there.

No lets take one of the links you provided earlier in this thread.......The one you quoted above.... according to Skinner, marriage was the necessary and mandatory prerequisite of procreation. Look at the date on this case. This case was decided in 1942. Pre-Griswold, pre-repeal of sodomy laws. At the time it was basically illegal for a married couple to engage in any type of sexual activity that was not conducive to procreation. It was also illegal (and, technically, still is illegal in some states) to engage in any sexual activity outside of marriage. So, of course, in 1942 procreation was viewed as a logical pre-requisite of marriage. This is no longer the case.

The obligations associated with the marriage contract at the time of Skinner were these: A married couple had to allow for the possibility of procreation (no contraception, no sexual conduct that was not conducive to procreation); they had to refrain from having sex with someone outside the marriage; and the husband was legally considered the father of any children born to his wife. Add to these obligations the fact that it was illegal to engage in any sexual activity outside of marriage and you have a compelling State interest in promoting procreation in marriage. That was the state of marriage as seen by the justices in the Skinner case. Of course, they believed that the ability to procreate was a logical prerequisite to marriage. Marriage was the only situation in which one could legally procreate at all.

Where did same-sex couples fit into this concept of marriage? They didn't. They couldn't legally engage in the contract... not because they didn't fit the legal definition of who could marry – up until the early '70's that was gender neutral in every state that had a legal definition. But the State could prove that it had a compelling State interest in promoting procreation back then... there were laws to back it up. They could prove that it was necessary to exclude same-sex couples from marriage to further that interest because same-sex couples could only engage in illegal sexual activity that was not conducive to procreation; it was immediately recognizable that they would be unable to procreate; and, procreation was one of the primary aims in the government's regulation of marriage.

But civil marriage has radically changed since then. The only obligation in the contract that relates exclusively to procreation is assumed paternity – and even that is going the way of the dodo. So the elements of the marriage contract that proved the State's compelling interest have all but disappeared. The government allows married couples to use contraception; it allows them to engage in sexual activity that is not conducive to procreation; adultery – while still a grounds for divorce, has been either repealed as a crime or is not enforced; and, in an increasing number of states, it is now possible to challenge paternity in marriage. Add to this the repeal of fornication laws and marriage is no longer the necessary, mandatory prerequisite to procreation. The connection in marriage at the time of Skinner no longer exists. Procreation has become simply one of the options that allow for children to be present in a married family – one of the most used options, but an option nonetheless.

But you'll notice that Skinner says something very particular. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence of our race. Just because marriage is no longer a mandatory prerequisite to procreation is it no longer fundamental to the very existence of our race? Sure it is. You can procreate until the end of the earth and not ensure the survival of the race. If you do not rear the child properly, the child dies. So here is where marriage comes in. Marriage is the ideal environment in which to raise a child because of the stable familial environment it fosters. So marriage is the ideal environment in which to raise children... something that is fundamental to our very existence. This applies to all married families... not exclusively the ones who procreate. If you adopt a child and raise it in this ideal environment, you are helping to ensure our survival as a race.
 
???? The reasons you list have nothing to do with being gay. Couple of homos isnt some kind of second best alternative to biological parents.

You keep talking about biological parents. Do you have any evidence that biological parents are, in any way, better at raising a child than step-parents or adoptive parents?

And you are correct that gays are not some kind of second best alternative to biological parents. Studies have shown the children turn out just the same, so they are equal to biological parents.
 
I have an idea, if you fail to produce a child within three years of your marriage, it should be automatically anulled.
 
I have an idea, if you fail to produce a child within three years of your marriage, it should be automatically anulled.
Lets go farther and bring back the bans on fornication..I mean,fornication laws have been found to be an unconstitutional invasion of privacy.. oh and FYI--the first instance of a fornication law being found unconstitutional occurred in 1977 in New Jersey. State of New Jersey v. Saunders
 
Maybe secondary but still elemental. Gay lovers werent considered property or have dowries to entice good husbands. Because

"matrimonium is an institution involving a mother, mater. The idea implicit in the word is that a man takes a woman in marriage, in matrimonium ducere, so that he may have children by her."


Yes, the old fashioned notions of the different roles to be played by men and women, no longer have any applicability in modern society. But the limitation of only men becoming fathers by turning a woman into a mother, isnt old fashioned notions of the differing roles of men and women but is intead the differing biological roles of men and women in procreation.

§ 160.204. PRESUMPTION OF PATERNITY.
(a) A man is presumed to be the father of a child if:
(1) he is married to the mother of the child and the child is born during the marriage;....

just as it was, thousands of years ago in BC Rome

Mater semper certa est ("The mother is always certain")
"pater semper incertus est" ("The father is always uncertain")
"pater est, quem nuptiae demonstrant" ("father is to whom marriage points")


Greeks and Romans considered man to man love the purest and most manly type of love.
http://sexualinterestinmen.blogspot.com/
 
No, its for more children born into homes with both their mother and father present to provide and care for them and fewer born into homes with only one or none of those parents present. To improve the well being of the children.

Two parent homes does not guarantee the well being of the children, sorry, not a good reason to deny gays their rights.
 
Heterosexuals enjoy the rights because heterosexuals, uniquely have the capacity to procreate. If you want to instead limit marriage to couples with "romantic love", youll need some justification for doing so.

Show me one marriage law, in the US, that says the right for hetersexuals to marry is because they have the capacity to procreate.
 
You are the one who claimed it has "zero to do with gays marrying", WHEN IN FACT, it is why gays cant marry in 44 states.
And purifying the white race was deemed not to be a legitimate governmental interest. Improving the well being of children is such a legitimate governmental interest.

Then divorce should be illegal.
 
I'll never, ever, understand why some "conservatives" believe that the right to believe and worship as you will ends at the alter, or how people who claim moral authority through a strong support of the constitution would deny individual rights based on their personal beliefs.

I'll ask again. Which portion of the constitution gives the government the power to regulate your personal life to this level? (And yes, official sanction of one group of beliefs is absolutely a regulation against others who may believe differently.)

Without a direct (not indirect "may be" type) victim the government should recuse itself from making any laws regarding such a topic that relies so heavily on belief structures.

It is our heritage to allow personal freedoms, we restrict our government from intruding on those rights with a written contract that we should require that government to follow. There is no basis to ignore that contract here based on some obtuse idea of "Tradition".

When my personal beliefs and the constitution come in conflict the constitution will always win. I believe that government should be restricted.
 
We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=316&invol=535

heterosexual couples are the only couples who can produce biological offspring of the couple
http://www.courts.wa.gov/newsinfo/content/pdf/759341opn.pdf

The one from 1942 is a real stretch and obviously the one from 2006 will be challanged and overturned.
Gays will be allowed to marry.
 
No, Ive already pointed out they dont rub genitals like heterosexual and homosexual couples. But none of you have identified any relevance of rubbing genitals to the formation of stable households.

Oh, good grief...my friends don't have children, is their home unstable? My other friends had children and got divorced, creating a very unstable household. My other friends reproductive organs didn't work and they adopted.
My other friends had traditional families, divorced and married the loves of their life, a gay relationship. Darla is right, you use a ton of verbiage to prove nothing.
 
Nope, even in the 6 states with gay marriage, marriages between closely related couples is prohibited and laws still annul or dissolve platonic marriages for a failure to procreate.

Would you care to show a recent, within the last 10 years, where a platonic marriage was annuled or dissolved for failure to procreate?
 
We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=316&invol=535

heterosexual couples are the only couples who can produce biological offspring of the couple
http://www.courts.wa.gov/newsinfo/content/pdf/759341opn.pdf

The race is overpopulated and the small percentage of gays who marry are in no danger do ending the human race. Another idiotic claim.
 
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