blackascoal
The Force is With Me
What is sad is that you're arguing but you don't have a point.
If you'd like to debate which side "cares" more about the human condition, I'll happily oblige you.
.. else, find a point.
Admit it Dems: Ryan scares the shit out of you
- Thread starter Cancel 2016.2
- Start date
What is sad is that you're arguing but you don't have a point.
If you'd like to debate which side "cares" more about the human condition, I'll happily oblige you.
.. else, find a point.
Point: The left on this site, in this nation, and in your post, measures the "care" of the "right" by the amount of government programs they support, or do not support...
You tell me all about how that doesn't happen the next time we see an ad with somebody pushing grandma off a cliff for coming up with a way to save a program that cannot be maintained without change.
Just saying that I have no point doesn't make it reality. That you don't like the point doesn't change that you have made no counterpoint, that you have solely indulged in an attempt a misdirection...
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Do you need a cigarette?
Are you talking about THIS AD?
Tell me again about how just liberals do it.
Don't remember "death panels", eh?
j-mac
Verified User
Ok, I am going to back up and slow down so that we all can understand, because one of my shortcomings may be that I don't follow rhetoric too well...When you talk of societies being run "democratically", how does that look differently than what we do today, which is to have a representative republic, made up of reps that are democratically elected by the people? And, when you talk of meeting the public needs, in place of making profits for the few, aren't you just talking run of the mill socialist redistribution of wealth, and resources?
That is flowery language for sure...But transformed to what? You don't say. At least not clearly.
So, and forgive me if I am not 100% on this, but your vision of greater economic, and social democratic involvement by the people comes at the expense of the people striving, and working for economic and social innovation experienced now, also the reps elected in your vision would be little more than figureheads without the ability to effectively do anything on behalf of anyone due to micro management of the process?
I did, however, I also know that democracy, and democratically were used by the founders as a means to elect reps to make people free, not the other way around as the socialist construct would have.
No, you don't want to do away with them anymore than the bank robber wants to get rid of their 'patsy's'...
I think we can, but that goes both ways, and can only be achieved through a frank discussion, not regurgitated pamphlet meme's...Agreed?
No, if I did, it is because I strongly don't believe that Socialism, or any toe in the door of it will work in this country without taking away freedoms.
You are a smart guy BAC, and I hope we can further this conversation.
Tell me about how that means we measure how much you "care" by how many programs you support and you may actually have an argument. An ad pointing out the pitfalls that may appear in a government program using hyperbole doesn't make the point you appear to be trying to make.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Oh that makes so much difference. You were just "pointing out" that Obama wants to push grandma off a cliff .. but liberals were being mean. :0)
If that makes sense to you .. I don't know what to tell ya'.
"death panels" escapes you?
BOTH sides use hyperbole.
Is that like news to you?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
That doesn't sound like coercion to me. You said people were coerced into investing in Enron, now you say it was part of their benefit package. Which, incidentally, is what I said too.
The funds didn't exist because the books had been cooked, therefore, there was nothing for the Enron employees to withdraw. This was a fairly public incident, and most people are aware that what Enron did was illegal and unethical, and the perpetrators were tried and sent off to prison for the crimes they committed. Enron is a poor example of capitalist free markets at work, because it is the exceptional rare instance where greedy people exploit the system and break the law for personal gain. While things like this are unfortunate, the system we have still works, the people who did the wrongdoing were sent to jail.
Let's ask ourselves a poignant question here.... What if Enron were a government-owned entity? What if the same scandal took place, the same people lost their retirements, and the same people were responsible for breaking the law, but the company was owned by the government? Would the government have benevolently tried their own entity in court? Would they have sent their own cronies off to prison? DOUBTFUL! In fact, you would have never even heard of Enron, had that been the case, because there would have been no one to go to, and no one to prosecute the case.
Your Enron example is an embarrassingly great example of how stupid you are. You are deriding a system that held people accountable and sent them to prison for breaking the law --- In favor of a system that would have never acknowledged your complaint in the first place, or held their own accountable in any way.
They are called CAPITALISTS.
GOOD! It's where we need to be! Where capitalism does a better job than government... as is the case with virtually everything.
The rich always get richer because they are motivated to make money, that's why they are rich in the first place. And the poor are less motivated to earn money, that is why they are poor. This dynamic will ALWAYS exist, because it's completely natural. The only way to not have this dynamic, is if we take the wealth of everyone and give it all to the government, so that everyone has nothing and the government has everything. Then the government can disperse the wealth evenly among all... but the problem is, once that accumulative wealth is gone, there is no more to be gained, the capitalists are gone. You did away with them because you didn't like rich people getting richer, so now they don't. Ultimately, everyone will have the same bowl of rice, no one can have more and no one can have less.... and it will remain this way until the people rise up and overthrow the government and re-install capitalist free markets.
Yes we have... From 1776, the youngest nation in the world-- to 1946, the most powerful nation ever known in human history. Less than 200 years, and we literally schooled empires that had been around for thousands of years. THAT is the power of unbridled capitalism.
If this were true, it would be apparent after spending trillions of dollars over the years, and we would see some results. For 70+ years, this nation has doled out government assistance to the poor and needy, we've taken care of the sick and elderly with Medicaid and Medicare, we've instituted programs to help people in need, left and right, both republicans and democrats. TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of dollars have been spent, to "solve the problem" here... and what have we to show for it? The poverty level remains the same, the poor still exist, people still get sick. It appears to me, government hasn't solved a problem, and it doesn't look as if they've even helped that much. We've not developed a culture where people honestly think the government is supposed to provide everything they need from cradle to grave. Meanwhile, you continue to try and destroy capitalism, to make it virtually impossible for people to gain wealth, which in turn, makes it impossible for the poor to escape poverty.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
That doesn't sound like coercion to me. You said people were coerced into investing in Enron, now you say it was part of their benefit package. Which, incidentally, is what I said too.
The funds didn't exist because the books had been cooked, therefore, there was nothing for the Enron employees to withdraw. This was a fairly public incident, and most people are aware that what Enron did was illegal and unethical, and the perpetrators were tried and sent off to prison for the crimes they committed. Enron is a poor example of capitalist free markets at work, because it is the exceptional rare instance where greedy people exploit the system and break the law for personal gain. While things like this are unfortunate, the system we have still works, the people who did the wrongdoing were sent to jail.
Let's ask ourselves a poignant question here.... What if Enron were a government-owned entity? What if the same scandal took place, the same people lost their retirements, and the same people were responsible for breaking the law, but the company was owned by the government? Would the government have benevolently tried their own entity in court? Would they have sent their own cronies off to prison? DOUBTFUL! In fact, you would have never even heard of Enron, had that been the case, because there would have been no one to go to, and no one to prosecute the case.
Your Enron example is an embarrassingly great example of how stupid you are. You are deriding a system that held people accountable and sent them to prison for breaking the law --- In favor of a system that would have never acknowledged your complaint in the first place, or held their own accountable in any way.
They are called CAPITALISTS.
GOOD! It's where we need to be! Where capitalism does a better job than government... as is the case with virtually everything.
The rich always get richer because they are motivated to make money, that's why they are rich in the first place. And the poor are less motivated to earn money, that is why they are poor. This dynamic will ALWAYS exist, because it's completely natural. The only way to not have this dynamic, is if we take the wealth of everyone and give it all to the government, so that everyone has nothing and the government has everything. Then the government can disperse the wealth evenly among all... but the problem is, once that accumulative wealth is gone, there is no more to be gained, the capitalists are gone. You did away with them because you didn't like rich people getting richer, so now they don't. Ultimately, everyone will have the same bowl of rice, no one can have more and no one can have less.... and it will remain this way until the people rise up and overthrow the government and re-install capitalist free markets.
Yes we have... From 1776, the youngest nation in the world-- to 1946, the most powerful nation ever known in human history. Less than 200 years, and we literally schooled empires that had been around for thousands of years. THAT is the power of unbridled capitalism.
If this were true, it would be apparent after spending trillions of dollars over the years, and we would see some results. For 70+ years, this nation has doled out government assistance to the poor and needy, we've taken care of the sick and elderly with Medicaid and Medicare, we've instituted programs to help people in need, left and right, both republicans and democrats. TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of dollars have been spent, to "solve the problem" here... and what have we to show for it? The poverty level remains the same, the poor still exist, people still get sick. It appears to me, government hasn't solved a problem, and it doesn't look as if they've even helped that much. We've now developed a generational culture where people honestly think the government is supposed to provide everything they need from cradle to grave. Meanwhile, you continue to try and destroy capitalism, to make it virtually impossible for people to gain wealth, which in turn, makes it impossible for the poor to escape poverty.
No, I am pointing out that the ad directly states that the "right" doesn't care because they want less people dependent on a program (an example of my point) while your ad doesn't do the same. The comparison was invalid and doesn't make the point you were trying to make, hyperbole not being the topic of discussion. It is simply another dodge trying to misdirect the conversation.
In order to make your point you would need to tell me how the "right" doesn't "care" without mentioning a government program you think they should support.
j-mac
Verified User
BAC, Tell me what the IPAB is in Obamacare, can you?
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
What is different is that I'm talking about a truly representative democracy .. which is absent from corporate ownership. That is not what we have today. Do you disagree?
I already know who is going to win this election .. the one who be the best puppet for America's corporate masters. Obama.
What is different is that socialists are talking about representation not only politically, but also economically.
A more just society entails many things .. most of which is about removing corporate control from our political system .. which has a hand the wars we fight, the "crimes" that we prosecute, and the quality of life measures for American citizens.
You may think it just to give trillions of dollars to rich people as a bailout for their failures .. but I do not.
No problem .. but you are wrong to believe that "people first" implies that people won't still be striving for success and inovation. Capitalists believe that money is the only motivating factor .. it isn't. There are more doctors in Cuba per capita than there are in the US. In fact, there are many med students who go to Cuba to study.
There are more college graduates in Libya per capita than there are in the US.
We do not seek an end to capitalism, but an end to unfettered capitalism that only benefits the rich.
"Free" is relative. How are you free when corporations own your government and manipulate your elections? How are you free when Americans have no voice in the wars we fight and the economic direction of their own country?
How are you free when the US is the greatest prison nation in human history .. most for non-violent crimes that only enrich the prison/industrial complex?
Not sure what that means .. but I want representative government free of corporate control.
Are you of the belief that corporate-free is not a representative government?
I don't do meme .. that's for partisans .. which I am not.
Corporate "freedom" to control the US government SHOULD be taken away. Ask the Founders who you like to refer to.
We both are smart .. no reason why we can't continue to discuss any and everything of importance.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
With all due respect my good friend, pushing grandma off a cliff is the same hyperbole no matter which side does it. You seem to have problems with that truth.
It's real simple .. if the first place you look to make cuts is to the safety-nets that are keeping millions of people alive .. then you don't care about the human condition .. especially when there are lots of other places to make cuts, starting with our over-bloated defense budget .. and including the trillions we give to already rich people.
Your turn.
USFREEDOM911
MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
??...wow, that reference really went over your head, didn't it....
Too bad the little retard is too stupid to see how badly he is pwned. If he could, he would be too embarrassed to continue posting here. Quite hilariously, really.
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
the irony of this post is awesome
Your parroting of rightwing lies is not impressing me. You know nothing of the hard work and dedication to the students from our public school teachers. Don't even pretend that you do.
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
gatorman, you're a proven liar, you shouldn't call anyone else a liar
So from what I hear from a new friend he was banned for 60 days for trolling. Go figure.