A Civil Discussion: Evolution, Science, Theology, Atheism, Climate

Darth Omar said:
The Origin of the Species lol.

I’m good with speciation but I struggle with some aspects of common descent [particularly the ape-like to man jump] and I have my doubts about the creative power of natural selection.

There is plenty of room for God in it unless one takes a strict literalist view on the early chapters of Genesis.
Click to expand...
well that’s fine but your belief isn’t science. Your disbelief doesn’t nullify the factual basis of a scientific theory nor does your/our gaps in knowledge. You can disbelieve in any and all scientific theories based on your reasoning.
 
Aside from the problem of somehow gathering and physically fitting all of the current animal species on the ark, plus the dinosaurs too, and enough food for all of them (a seriously preposterous concept,) another thing to consider is that the animals from all over the world live in very different climates, not reproducible aboard the ark. That means there are going to be beavers, snakes from the Amazon jungle rain forest, swamp dwelling creatures, polar bears, and penguins to name a few. Some of them would be too hot, others too cold aboard the ark. Some would require a very moist environment, others from the desert - very dry. It is a fanciful story but absurd to believe all of this is possible. Lemurs eat live fresh leaves from certain trees. It is ridiculous to pretend this could happen. I don't care how you squint, or what kind of facial expressions you make, there is nothing which makes all of this even remotely possible.

It does, however, explain how people can believe President Trump is a good man.

If they can believe all of this despite the mountains of evidence against it, then why not believe Trump is really a good guy who looks out for others, too?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
well that’s fine but your belief isn’t science. Your disbelief doesn’t nullify the factual basis of a scientific theory nor does your/our gaps in knowledge. You can disbelieve in any and all scientific theories based on your reasoning.
Click to expand...

I have an advantage in that I don’t need evolution to be true to support my worldview. Conversely, my faith in God isn’t predicated on whether or not the universe was created in six literal days.

It’s liberating lol.

I also believe the gaps in knowledge are getting bigger instead of smaller. Darwin, for example, could not conceive of the complexity of living organisms.
 
Darth Omar said:
It seems skepticism is ok unless it’s applied to certain theories.
I find that to be pretty ironic.
Click to expand...

My guess is that you are discussing skepticism among lay persons, not among scientists where skepticism comes with the paycheck. Skepticism is the very reason why science works, and why it advances in knowledge. You and I saying that we doubt the theory of relativity (most likely because neither of us have the mathematical background to understand it) is far different than a Stephen Hawking or a Werner Heisenberg questioning it.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
My guess is that you are discussing skepticism among lay persons, not among scientists where skepticism comes with the paycheck. Skepticism is the very reason why science works, and why it advances in knowledge. You and I saying that we doubt the theory of relativity (most likely because neither of us have the mathematical background to understand it) is far different than a Stephen Hawking or a Werner Heisenberg questioning it.
Click to expand...

Those are fairly modest theories by comparison.

Is there any part of evolution you are personally skeptical of?

At least privately lol?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Well Leon those are pretty serious charges and if you make those you had better be able to back that up with a factual knowledge of the scientific principle in question and not just a “faith” in science.
Click to expand...

Those were not "charges". Those were observations.
Religious conviction is not compatible with modern living.
Believing what was thought to be real thousands of years ago by primitive peoples does nothing to advance our civilization or answer our questions.
 
Hello ThatOwlWoman,

I should add that I agree with you about allowing others to have their beliefs. I know this is very difficult for some. And this ties into how I can strongly believe in liberal platforms, yet advocate for unity, open discussion, and allowing others to believe in conservative platforms.

The beauty of the USA, one of the things that makes America great, is our diversity. And this diversity is not simply ethnic or racial backgrounds, but freedom to believe whatever one wishes to believe. This should be consistent in religion as well as in politics.

I disagree with most conservative and religious belief structures, but I want people to be able to have them, express them and hold onto them. The reason is that without opposing views, I have no alternatives to reject, nothing to compare to, nothing to reinforce my own beliefs. With all of these opposing views out there, I am able to look at them, see what I believe are the fallacies contained in them, and thus affirm that what I believe in is justified.

And, of course, none of us is perfect, none of us knows everything. We must always be open to new information, in case we have overlooked something important. and since none of us are perfect or can possibly know everything, that means no matter how strongly we believe in the things we do, there is always the possibility that we could be wrong. So, just on the slimmest of chances that perhaps we are wrong, we must allow others to hold different views.

And we must allow ourselves to be wrong. We should embrace being wrong as an opportunity to learn. When I am wrong, I admit it. If I have inadvertently insulted someone, I apologize. It is OK to be wrong. When we admit our errors, we have a chance to learn. By embracing the discomfort of being wrong, we allow ourselves to learn, and we gain respect from others. We should all respect one another. When respect is held high, our society can be most functional and able to progress.

We can be united in respect for one another, freedom of expression, and a desire to do our part to keep America great. This should over-ride our political positions.

That is why I strongly believe we must continue to discuss everything, and allow others to have their say as well. Together, we forward the basis of human knowledge, we progress.

I think our forefathers must have realized this when they made sure that we have freedom of expression, and freedom of religion.

I think it hurts our nation when we reject views and lash out at others who hold them. When we take sides and proclaim we alone are correct and all others are incorrect, we foolishly pretend we know everything. Anyone who does that stops learning. We must always learn and improve. Learning and improving is how humans progress, advance humanity, and make all of our lives better, more enjoyable.

And the secret of life is enjoying time.
 
Last edited:
Darth Omar said:
Those are fairly modest theories by comparison.
Is there any part of evolution you are personally skeptical of?
At least privately lol?
Click to expand...

No, not that I can think of off-hand. I've taken several college-level bio courses though so I am familiar with both macro and micro-evolution. BTW, learning how we are what we are today -- and all the other lifeforms we share the planet with -- in no way erases the wonder and feeling of awe at the beauty and complexity of life on Earth. I have no personal need for a creator deity in order to appreciate and know gratitude for this place.
 
Phantasmal said:
I did not watch the video after reading about Berlinski who seems to to have acquainted himself with fossil evidence before attacking it, and also seems not to have an understanding of natural selection. I didn’t waste 40’mnutes of my time.
Click to expand...

I did not watch it either. I am familiar enough with him and the book since he is a hack from the Discovery Institute, known opponents of science.
 
PoliTalker said:
I think it hurts our nation when we reject views and lash out at others who hold them. When we take sides and proclaim we alone are correct and all others are incorrect, we foolishly pretend we know everything. Anyone who does that stops learning. We must always learn and improve. Learning and improving is how humans progress, advance humanity, and make all of our lives better, more enjoyable.

And the secret of life is enjoying time.
Click to expand...

Well said.

Most of the liberals that I know personally, including myself (she said modestly), tend to be much more tolerant of divergent opinions than do the conservatives that I know in real life. Certainly when it comes to things of a religious nature, we are far more live-and-let-live than are some on the right. Believe what you want, worship as you please, raise your kids in your belief system. We just ask that you don't demand that we do the same. And for the love of Pete, don't tell my kids that they're going to hell because they're not raised like yours. Thanks.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
well that’s fine but your belief isn’t science. Your disbelief doesn’t nullify the factual basis of a scientific theory nor does your/our gaps in knowledge. You can disbelieve in any and all scientific theories based on your reasoning.
Click to expand...

got science?....
rock-got-milk.jpg
 
Last edited:
tinfoil said:
Because their ancestors didn't have the same environmental inputs which in turn led to the differing mutation of the branching species. The monkeys and apes remained in their habitat while the mutating species filled niches in other environments. The monkeys and apes experienced less displacement by mutations because they were already adapted well to their environment.
Click to expand...

:lolup: :rofl2:
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Well for one evolutionary theory doesn’t state that man evolved from ape. It’s the single biggest misconception of the theory and poof positive of science illiteracy. Evolutionary theory predicts that apes and human descended from common ancestors.

As for other monkeys and apes...well if you think about what you just said, the very variety of primates you just mentioned is evidence that they have and still are evolving.
Click to expand...

:lolup: :rofl2:
 
Mott the Hoople said:
It doesn’t have too. That’s a false choice. Evolutionary theory has nothing to say on God, the existence of God or the ultimate origin of life itself.

Evolutionary theory is simply a very robust explanation that biologist use to model speciation. Whether you like it or not, or believe in it or not, for whatever reason, the fact remains that it is a very powerful tool in understanding how living systems adapt to their environment and, over time, form new and different species.

It’s so useful, in fact, that most forms of applied biology are founded on the principle of evolutionary theory.
Click to expand...

:lolup: So now its adapting? :rofl2:
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You’re using “theory” in the common sense of a guess or idea. That’s not what a scientific theory is. A scientific theory is an overarching explanation that describes some natural or related natural phenomena and a scientific theory must meet specific criteria to be considered a scientific theory.

Among those are that it must be based on fact. Gravitational theory, for example, is based on the fact of the law of gravity. That is that every particle of matter attracts all other particles of matter with a force that is directly proportional to their mass and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between their centers.

The theory of evolution by natural selection is based on three laws of nature that are easily observed. The law of inheritance. All off spring are similar to their parents, the law of variation, all off spring have differences from their parents. The law of superfecundincy, that all species produce more off spring than will survive to reproductive maturity.
Click to expand...

:lolup: Theory as science. :rofl2:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top