A Deeper dive into Mamdani grocery stores...

[Into the Night]

An army of strawmen.

Fallacy fallacy. Go learn what a strawman fallacy is. Argument of the Stone fallacy.

 

[Damocles]

Spirit Airlines needs to just die. They suck in every way that matters and are failing because they suck in every way it matters.

 

[Into the Night]

lol more strawmen. I guess you couldn't find anything to refute what I said so you made up your conversation with yourself. Okay.

Fallacy fallacy. Go learn what a strawman fallacy is. Argument of the Stone fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

@T. A. Gardner's position summarized.

Tax payers pay in about $5T a year in federal taxes.

Currently about $5.4 trillion. The US debt is currently approaching $40 trillion. The current budget this year is about $8.6 trillion. Do you see the problem yet?

- Agency A wasted $50 billion of those tax payers dollars
- Agency B wasted $10 million of those tax payer dollars.

Define 'waste'.

Terry is saying no tax payer can determine from that which waste they consider worse as he argues taxpayers do not care about their percent of their dollars wasted. He argues what taxpayer care is percent of the budget they were given ONLY.

Define 'waste'. Buzzword fallacy.

That until a tax payer knew the budgets given they would have no opinion on which was a worse abuse and loss of their tax payer dollars.

Define 'abuse'. Buzzword fallacy.

Communism never works, Kewpie.

 

[countryboy]

fascism is the union of state and corporate power.

and church too if they can get.

all the sticks bound together. true faggotry.

Wrong.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

Wrong.

right.

you're just a corporate cocksuck so you hate the truth of this definition.

banker bailouts are fascism.

citizens united is fascism.

excessive regulation to keep out new businesses are fascism.

protection of cartels and monopolies is fascism.

 

[QP!]

Apples to nail guns.

The federal government has a budget. Two line items in it have wasteful spending, one $10 billion, the other $50 billion. In this example, the money is coming from the same budget so, of course, the $50 billion is worse.

The examples I've given are two different budgets each with some wasteful spending in them. The smaller, local budget has much higher waste than the larger federal one. People are going to notice the waste in the smaller budget that is local far more easily and with concern than waste in the federal budget where it doesn't as directly affect them.

Does not change what you said. You have argued consistently that what tax payers care about 'Percent of Budget' wasted and not 'Percent of tax payer paid in money' that is wasted.

Whether in the same budget or different budgets or entirely differing areas it is all the same tax payer and the same source of money.

So your prior position stands and is still stupid.

--------

Terry's position summarized.

Tax payers pay in about $5T a year in federal taxes.

- Agency A (does not matter if in same budget or differing) wasted $50 billion of those tax payers dollars
- Agency B wasted $10 million (does not matter if in same budget or differing) of those tax payer dollars.

Terry is saying no tax payer can determine from that which waste they consider worse as he argues taxpayers do not care about their percent of their dollars wasted. He argues what taxpayer care is percent of the budget they were given ONLY.

That until a tax payer knew the budgets given they would have no opinion on which was a worse abuse and loss of their tax payer dollars.

 

[Into the Night]

They were major capitalists.

Capitalism has no 'major' or 'minor'. It is simply capitalism.

they differences are most were industrial capitalists and only a few were financial capitalists.

I already know you hate capitalism. You are a socialist. Your word games are useless here.

They operate very differently. Rockefeller for instance merely practiced self-defense,

Developing oil fields and building refineries and distribution systems is not 'self defense'.

as a small to middling refinery operator being squeezed by two giant railroads

A refinery isn't a railroad.

and basically just outsmarting them.

Rockefeller definitely outsmarted others!

Vanderbilt did pretty much the same in growing his empire.

The same as what?

Morgan merely saddled corporations with debt and used it to buy more corporations,

Corporations took on their own debt.

and then when they went bankrupt, made sure he owned the bankruptcy court judges.

He didn't. Bankruptcy court has to follow very specific rules. If someone puts up collateral for a loan, default means you lose that collateral.

They other built and operated huge corporations that actually produced things and hired people;

Hundreds of millions of people in the U.S. benefit from what Rockefeller did. Tens of millions of people benefit from what JP Morgan did.

all Morgan did was manipulate debts and judges.

I take it you know almost nothing about banking.

Carnegie was a mix of both.

Steel is not a bank.

Pretty much. Except it is public cultural values that determine what these corporations can get away with and what kind of laws get passed and how effectively they are enforced.

Again, you advocate socialism, this time as fascism.

 

[Into the Night]

Corporations.

Corporations is a concoction of lawyers??

The last time I was in court testifying the judge was laughing at the plaintiff's lawyer for asking stupid questions and my sarcastic but accurate answers. He was not happy with me.

After all, all a lawyer is is a glorified legal clerk with a liberal arts degree in one of the easiest liberals arts there is.

There are certainly incompetent lawyers. I've come across a few! But to blame all lawyers for being incompetent or evil is just bigotry.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Does not change what you said. You have argued consistently that what tax payers care about 'Percent of Budget' wasted and not 'Percent of tax payer paid' that is wasted.

Whether in the same budget or different budgets or entirely differing areas it is all the same tax payer and the same source of money.

So your prior position stands and is still stupid.

--------

Terry's position summarized.

Tax payers pay in about $5T a year in federal taxes.

- Agency A (does not matter if in same budget or differing) wasted $50 billion of those tax payers dollars
- Agency B wasted $10 million (does not matter if in same budget or differing) of those tax payer dollars.

Terry is saying no tax payer can determine from that which waste they consider worse as he argues taxpayers do not care about their percent of their dollars wasted. He argues what taxpayer care is percent of the budget they were given ONLY.

That until a tax payer knew the budgets given they would have no opinion on which was a worse abuse and loss of their tax payer dollars.

They do. Do you think the people in Dalton Il, who have the "Worst mayor in America" who's spending about half the city's budget on herself are more concerned about that than they are about some agency in the federal government they've never heard about wasting twice or three times that city's budget?

All politics are local...

 

[Into the Night]

Spirit Airlines needs to just die. They suck in every way that matters and are failing because they suck in every way it matters.

I agree. I don't think anyone wants to save it as an organization. Someone will buy the planes and other assets though, scattering to the wind, so to speak!

 

[Steinbeck]

Capitalism has no 'major' or 'minor'. It is simply capitalism.

I already know you hate capitalism. You are a socialist. Your word games are useless here.

Developing oil fields and building refineries and distribution systems is not 'self defense'.


A refinery isn't a railroad.

Rockefeller definitely outsmarted others!

The same as what?

Corporations took on their own debt.

He didn't. Bankruptcy court has to follow very specific rules. If someone puts up collateral for a loan, default means you lose that collateral.

Hundreds of millions of people in the U.S. benefit from what Rockefeller did. Tens of millions of people benefit from what JP Morgan did.

I take it you know almost nothing about banking.

Steel is not a bank.

Again, you advocate socialism, this time as fascism.

You put a lot of effort into these silly streams of attention whoring strawman babblings. You must be very lonely.

 

[QP!]

They do. Do you think the people in Dalton Il, who have the "Worst mayor in America" who's spending about half the city's budget on herself are more concerned about that than they are about some agency in the federal government they've never heard about wasting twice or three times that city's budget?

All politics are local...

Nope.

Your attempt to change the argument fails.

This is not about one person, or one town who may have a personal experience that colors their view. That is, as you would say if i tried to offer that example, anecdotal and a fallacy to push forward.

We are speaking to 'taxpayers as a group' and always were.

The question being answered is 'when taxpayers collectively pay X in taxes what concerns them more when it comes to waste'? Which would they want stopped more in the next budget because it was the bigger concern?

A - the percent of the dollars they paid in (example $1 M dollars of which 30% is wasted, or $300K)

or

B - the percent of the budget even if the amount is much smaller (example budget of $100K where 40% is wasted or $40K)

If you ask a taxpayer which waste of their dollars bothers them more, and if you could only stop one recurring again next year, all but you will say wasting $300k of the $1M we put in bothers us more.

You argue they will say 'nope we care more about 'percent of budget' so if we have to chose stop the $40K waste and let the $300K waste of our dollars go through.

You argue that as you are stupid.

 

[Althea]

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So we do not have to talk about the Trump Admin looking to use tax payer to buy huge money loser Spirit Airlines who will then compete private airlines, and adding that stake to the earlier equity purchases by the Trump Admin in Intel Corp, MP Materials, Lithium Americas, Trilogy Metals, Westinghouse, Vulcan Elements, and U.S. Steel.

Wait, what .... a huge taxpayer purchase of a failing cash sink airline we are all talking about (well not 'all', as @Damocles , @T. A. Gardner , @FastLane , etc will have no comment on this as only grocery stores are bad and all else good) and that is on news segments now...

A quick summary if you do not know before getting back to the topic...

How A Fuel Crisis Pushed Spirit Airlines Toward Government Ownership​

...the Trump administration was negotiating a $500 million rescue package for Spirit Airlines, in a deal that could give Washington the option to control as much as 90% of the twice-bankrupt low-cost carrier ...

It’s a remarkable development, and one I believe investors should be aware of. Not because Spirit itself is a compelling investment—at this point, it’s anything but...


-------------------

Ok so now we know about the Trump gov't movement to buy it lets get back to the topic and talk about how Mamdani is a terrible socialist ruining the free markets and will destroy other private businesses who have to compete against the companies using gov't dollars.

Low cost airlines are nothing new, and all have failed. I remember People's Express and all of it's early popularity. Eventually, the bigger airlines matched the pricing until they put the 'no frills' guys out of business.

Spirit Airlines has been bankrupt twice because the flight experience is always terrible. I would never fly Spirit after hearing horror stories from friends. If you're jumping from NY to Fla, it might be ok. But going cross country in a no frills airline is not very comfortable.

trump is a moron who has failed at everything he has ever embarked upon...save the for massive grifts when he's in the White House. He and his family/cronies invested heavily in Big Oil just before he started this war. He thumbs his nose at those who voted for him as he enjoys record returns.

 

[countryboy]

right.

you're just a corporate cocksuck so you hate the truth of this definition.

banker bailouts are fascism.

citizens united is fascism.

excessive regulation to keep out new businesses are fascism.

protection of cartels and monopolies is fascism.

You're a literal retard. Read a book.

 

[QP!]

Low cost airlines are nothing new, and all have failed. I remember People's Express and all of it's early popularity. Eventually, the bigger airlines matched the pricing until they put the 'no frills' guys out of business.

Spirit Airlines has been bankrupt twice because the flight experience is always terrible. I would never fly Spirit after hearing horror stories from friends. If you're jumping from NY to Fla, it might be ok. But going cross country in a no frills airline is not very comfortable.

trump is a moron who has failed at everything he has ever embarked upon...save the for massive grifts when he's in the White House. He and his family/cronies invested heavily in Big Oil just before he started this war. He thumbs his nose at those who voted for him as he enjoys record returns.

Yup.

And it only gets worse when Spirit is owned and run as a subsidiary of the government, which usually @T. A. Gardner would agree with. It will be growing yearly losses just absorbed by the tax payer base as the Federal governments takes 90% ownership of the equity and thus is responsible for its commitments and losses.

It is far worse for tax payers over all then what Mamdani is trying to do with 6 small grocery stores in both scale and tax payer money lost and we know that due to history of failed airlines needed to be bailed out time and time again.

The only reason Terry is now trying to spin the lie that taxpayers would care more about a $10M loss of their tax dollars than a multi hundred million dollar loss of their tax dollars as Terry, due to TDS cannot admit that Trumps socialism with these airlines (and the other big businesses he is pushing gov't into) is worse than Mamdani's with the grocery store.

Terry speaks to the 'moral hazard' of the few gov't owned grocery stores competing with others in the area while he completely ignores that a discount airline, now competing with gov't dollars not required to make profits can easily impact and potentially drive all other (better) discount airlines out of business due to the thin margins and pressure the gov't lack of profit model, can put them under.

TDS makes it so Terry cannot admit the above.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Nope.

Your attempt to change the argument fails.

This is not about one person, or one town who may have a personal experience that colors their view. That is, as you would say if i tried to offer that example, anecdotal and a fallacy to push forward.

We are speaking to 'taxpayers as a group' and always were.

The question being answered is 'when taxpayers collectively pay X in taxes what concerns them more when it comes to waste'? Which would they want stopped more in the next budget because it was the bigger concern?

A - the percent of the dollars they paid in (example $1 M dollars of which 30% is wasted, or $300K)

or

B - the percent of the budget even if the amount is much smaller (example budget of $100K where 40% is wasted or $40K)

If you ask a taxpayer which waste of their dollars bothers them more, and if you could only stop one recurring again next year, all but you will say wasting $300k of the $1M we put in bothers us more.

You argue they will say 'nope we care more about 'percent of budget' so if we have to chose stop the $40K waste and let the $300K waste of our dollars go through.

You argue that as you are stupid.

Well, if we're going to bitch about government boondoggles, there's California's high-speed fail that is about $232 billion in the hole and the federal government's part in that is like $10 to $15 billion and it looks like the construction is about to end as it has become totally unaffordable.

California's High-Speed Rail plan delayed again after uproar

The state’s High-Speed Rail Authority board punted a vote Wednesday on its long-awaited business plan — after lawmakers and budget hawks torched it as incomplete, opaque and possibly illegal.

nypost.com

Trump admin pulls plug on $4B for California's 'train to nowhere' project

U.S. Transportation Department cancels $4 billion for California's high-speed rail after review found zero miles of track laid in 10 years and ballooning costs.

www.foxbusiness.com

Trump administration pulls billions in funding for high-speed rail project; state leaders call decision 'illegal'

The Federal Railroad Administration pulled $4 billion in funding on Wednesday that was intended for high-speed rail construction in the Central Valley.

www.latimes.com

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7627107481528945933

View: https://www.tiktok.com/@lincolnmediahq/video/7627107481528945933

 

[QP!]

Well, if we're going to bitch about government boondoggles, there's California's high-speed fail that is about $232 billion in the hole and the federal government's part in that is like $10 to $15 billion and it looks like the construction is about to end as it has become totally unaffordable.

California's High-Speed Rail plan delayed again after uproar

The state’s High-Speed Rail Authority board punted a vote Wednesday on its long-awaited business plan — after lawmakers and budget hawks torched it as incomplete, opaque and possibly illegal.

nypost.com

Trump admin pulls plug on $4B for California's 'train to nowhere' project

U.S. Transportation Department cancels $4 billion for California's high-speed rail after review found zero miles of track laid in 10 years and ballooning costs.

www.foxbusiness.com

Trump administration pulls billions in funding for high-speed rail project; state leaders call decision 'illegal'

The Federal Railroad Administration pulled $4 billion in funding on Wednesday that was intended for high-speed rail construction in the Central Valley.

www.latimes.com

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7627107481528945933

View: https://www.tiktok.com/@lincolnmediahq/video/7627107481528945933

as Terry always does as he loses an argument he tries to change the topic.

Yes Terry i can admit tax payers would care more about that huge California tax payer dollar waste than a much smaller one such as Mamdani's grocery store should that prove to be a loser, just as i can admit those same tax payer would care much more about a big loss in Trump Spirit Airlines than they would a much smaller loss in the Mamdani grocery stores hypotheticals.

it is only you who cannot admit the latter and only because it is Trump associated.

Right? You state the California one is worse due to its much higher loss but you still refuse to admit that if Trump Spirit airlines suffers much bigger losses than the grocery stores that it is worse. Correct?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

as Terry always does as he loses an argument he tries to change the topic.

Yes Terry i can admit tax payers would care more about that huge California tax payer dollar waste than a much smaller one such as Mamdani's grocery store should that prove to be a loser, just as i can admit those same tax payer would care much more about a big loss in Trump Spirit Airlines than they would a much smaller loss in the Mamdani grocery stores hypotheticals.

it is only you who cannot admit the latter and only because it is Trump associated.

Right? You state the California one is worse due to its much higher loss but you still refuse to admit that if Trump Spirit airlines suffers much bigger losses than the grocery stores that it is worse. Correct?

YOU are the one making the argument that it is the sheer magnitude of spending that's important here. You say Trump bailing out Spirit is worse than Mamdani building unneeded grocery stores. Well, by that scale, California--and the federal government under several administrations--is worse for trying to build high speed fail.

That is your argument, isn't it?

 

[Ichabod Stain]

You're a literal retard. Read a book.

shed your ignorance, cretinoid snakeous fluxer.