Athiests Obviously Believe in SOMETHING!

You are so wrong. The author's premise only rests on Proposition A. in order to submit Proposition B. It is a tried and true position of philosophical study.

All Dixie has been proposing (which he should just give up on due to the stiff necked idiocy of his audience) is that there seems to be a driving force in man that causes him to seek the spiritual; his premis is that even in calling oneself an atheist seems to lend proof of this as evidenced by the need to deny the spiritual.

For further reading to those who actually want to explore the idea.

Dix if I have wrongly misrepresented you feel free to correct me :)

Not everything can be directly detected by the five senses, sure. But one of the main points of science is to figure out how we can understand those things that are not directly detectable, and how we can invent tools to detect those things. That's why, to understand the mind, we use microscopes, build models, detect the chemicals in there (not with our native chemical detection tools, like our tongue or our smell), detect the electrical impulses, use FMRI's, etc... etc...

In fact, science has predicted that there are things that we shouldn't be able to detect ever, like the parts of the universe that we are to far away from for light to have ever reached. This person was ignore on a massive scale.
 
People give god human qualities because we thought of god. God was created in the image of man. Now, that being said, your concept of god seems to be outside the mainstream, you see god as an entity but I don't think you see him as a man in a robe with a grey beard. But I also think you see god as omniscient and omnipresent. IF that is the case, then god gave us free will and a mind to explore our world. Not believing in god, or as you put it, denying him is part and parcel of that. Why would god punish us for exercising our abilities and, again if you are right, punish us for that. It makes god petty. God, if it exists would just point out the err of our belief system in the afterlife.

Well, punishment is something spoken of in many religious texts. To presume a belief in a supreme being, requires that we accept any religious text as altruistic, makes little sense to me. Again, I believe the concepts of "sin" and punishment from God, is a way humans have found to better comprehend and understand God. It doesn't mean they are right or wrong, just that God is beyond their ability to comprehend otherwise.

Now, you make a good point, but then you proceed to do the same thing, and apply your own interpretations as to what God would do, based on your own way of thinking. Where do you deduce God would point out the err of our belief system in the afterlife, and nothing more? Do you think an omnipotent being has the need to point something out to a mortal being? Why would it need to do this? And what purpose would that serve in an afterlife?
 
ID, you got it right, it's nice to know someone understood the point. It's pretty astonishing at the number of responses to this thread in a day. It has to be some kind of record here, as Atheists burn up the keyboards to prove my point. But read closely, they aren't just responding to my argument, they are trying desperately to destroy my argument, to discredit me personally, to throw any monkey wrench they can find into the Truth Machine! They've attempted to divert the topic into a debate of religious philosophy, they've tried using their own flawed misconceptions of God, whatever it takes, because it is as if they must "win" this argument, although it's something they claim not to care about or believe in. Isn't that a bit odd? To go to the mat with those kind of extremes, over something that doesn't matter to you?

There are plenty of beliefs I do not believe in that I often argue over. Not believing in something does not mean that it does not matter to you. That's clearly fallacious.
 
Faith can't be used to prove things.

Dixie, in normal human experience, faith comes with evidence. When I was a child I had faith that my parents would feed me and wouldn't let me die because they hadn't before hand. But religious nuts have turned faith without evidence into some noble concept, when in reality it should be considered the height of foolishness.
 
All I know is what I know, God is a presence and a force in my life, and is unmistakably real.

The same is true of people who delusionally believe they are Jesus. To them, they know they are Jesus. This is an unmistakable truth. They've actually taken three people who believed that they were Jesus and had them live together for three years. They had conversations like:

"Who are you?"
"I'm Jesus."
"You can't be Jesus! I'm Jesus!"
"You blaspheme! I am Jesus, the only Jesus!"

etc... etc...

They knew and believed they were Jesus. They were delusional. There is nothing profound about this concept.
 
Well, punishment is something spoken of in many religious texts. To presume a belief in a supreme being, requires that we accept any religious text as altruistic, makes little sense to me. Again, I believe the concepts of "sin" and punishment from God, is a way humans have found to better comprehend and understand God. It doesn't mean they are right or wrong, just that God is beyond their ability to comprehend otherwise.

Now, you make a good point, but then you proceed to do the same thing, and apply your own interpretations as to what God would do, based on your own way of thinking. Where do you deduce God would point out the err of our belief system in the afterlife, and nothing more? Do you think an omnipotent being has the need to point something out to a mortal being? Why would it need to do this? And what purpose would that serve in an afterlife?

I am indifferent as to the nature of your magical being, Dixie.
 
Dixie, in normal human experience, faith comes with evidence. When I was a child I had faith that my parents would feed me and wouldn't let me die because they hadn't before hand. But religious nuts have turned faith without evidence into some noble concept, when in reality it should be considered the height of foolishness.

Faith does not come with evidence. Your example erroneously substitutes "expectation" with faith. You expected a certain action, you had a basis for the expectation, there was no faith required.

Is it foolish to have faith without evidence? Do you have evidence of your mind and thoughts? Don't we have faith that our mind and thoughts exist? I can't prove your thoughts, I have no evidence to prove them, you have no evidence to prove them, you can articulate them, you can use language to convey your thoughts, but you simply can't provide physical proof of their existence, and neither can I, it requires some level of faith.
 
My Lord, i doth compare thee to my gas. let not your fury be unleashed on my blaspheming visage, but find pity on my lost and spiritually niggardly existence.

Embrace me in the gooey balm of thine righteous righteousness. Amen.
 
This is interesting to me, because it reveals one of the main problems I believe Atheists and even some religious people have, in understanding or comprehending God. As humans, we tend to want to place humanistic attributes on God... we call God "he" as if God has genitalia and a gender. We imagine God having human feeling and emotion, desires and needs, like those of a human. We do this because we are unable to comprehend God in any other way. Our inability to comprehend is both a blessing and a curse, it yields Atheistic beliefs as well as fanatical religious beliefs.

I often tell people I don't believe in God, I know and understand God. There is a difference between believing something and knowing it to be so. I can't convey my understanding to others, especially not people who are living in denial or have rejected the understanding completely. All I know is what I know, God is a presence and a force in my life, and is unmistakably real. I don't need to apply human characteristics to God, because God is not human. God doesn't "care" whether I worship him, because that would require God to have feelings and emotions, needs and desires, vanity and pride... I believe those are all human characteristics and not found in God. This is one of the reasons I am not of any particular religious belief, they all tend to apply human characteristics to God, which I don't think God has, or needs.

God does not have any characteristics, traits or attributes. He (btw, you used him and gave him genitalia) is just nothingness. Okay...
 
God might be a white guy with a long beard sitting in a throne.....

You dont know! How do you know God has no genitalia? If I were all powerfull, Id certantly have genitalit!


He gives Dixie financial advice in the shower!
 
There are plenty of beliefs I do not believe in that I often argue over. Not believing in something does not mean that it does not matter to you. That's clearly fallacious.

I beg to differ. If you take the time to type a response, it is obviously of importance to you. So we must examine why it is of importance to you. The most logical reason one could find for arguing something, is to change the mind of another. But how often is your rejection of God met with a change of mind in someone who believes in God? Is it safe to say, NEVER? So you aren't arguing against God in any realistic hope of changing anyone's mind, we can logically deduce this from the fact that you have never 'converted' anyone with your arguments, and odds are, you never will. You have to know this, you have to accept this is true.

If your purpose is not to change my mind, then what is your purpose for the argument. What would compel you people to spend hours posting hundreds of responses to a thread in a single day, if it is not to change the minds of others? My proven point has been, you are living in abject denial. The arguments are to convince yourselves of the idiocy you have chosen to claim belief in.

Now, some pinhead will undoubtedly chime in with the chortle; but aren't you doin' the same thing, Dixie? And the answer is yes, but I have a completely different set of motivations. I am not living in denial of the truth, I know the truth, and wish to share it with others. Why do I want to do that? Because I genuinely care about people, and want them to live the most fulfilled life possible, and they can't do so as Atheists. This is why most people aren't Atheists, they realize it is a completely flawed ideology and philosophy. It is Nihilism.

So our motivations here are completely different, as I've established, now let's look at what you are really illustrating in this thread, better than I could have done alone. You realize that you can't change minds on faith, so you begin to ridicule faith, and intellectually brow-beat those who have faith, but you have faith like everyone else does. Do we not have faith that physical aspects around us will remain constant? We do trust that up is up and down is down, gravity will work, oxygen will still be oxygen tomorrow... this requires FAITH! We BELIEVE these principles of physics and science, because we must! In order to make anything in logic work, we must first have FAITH!

It poses quite the dilemma for your argument, because you aren't seriously trying to change minds, and you can't logically dismiss faith... you turn to science and seek refuge from the ass handing you are getting, but again, science fails you. If we observed the inherent behaviors of ANY life form, and found a unique attribute present in the species for all of it's existence, and the species was unique and distinct from other similar DNA species, science would conclude the inherent behaviors are fundamental and necessary to the species, and the theory would prevail this had something to do with the other unique attributes. That's what we have with human spirituality, the scientific evidence that mankind is dependent upon faith in spiritual belief, and this is what distinguishes us from other similar primates.

Oh my.... It seems we are running out of rational justifications for your motivations here! And as we peel back the layers, and discard the false perceptions, it becomes ever-more clear what your purpose is. People who are living in denial, depend on the approval and support of like-minded people. It is commonly known as "codependency" in the mental health world.
 
I beg to differ. If you take the time to type a response, it is obviously of importance to you. So we must examine why it is of importance to you. The most logical reason one could find for arguing something, is to change the mind of another. But how often is your rejection of God met with a change of mind in someone who believes in God? Is it safe to say, NEVER? So you aren't arguing against God in any realistic hope of changing anyone's mind, we can logically deduce this from the fact that you have never 'converted' anyone with your arguments, and odds are, you never will. You have to know this, you have to accept this is true.

If your purpose is not to change my mind, then what is your purpose for the argument. What would compel you people to spend hours posting hundreds of responses to a thread in a single day, if it is not to change the minds of others? My proven point has been, you are living in abject denial. The arguments are to convince yourselves of the idiocy you have chosen to claim belief in.

Now, some pinhead will undoubtedly chime in with the chortle; but aren't you doin' the same thing, Dixie? And the answer is yes, but I have a completely different set of motivations. I am not living in denial of the truth, I know the truth, and wish to share it with others. Why do I want to do that? Because I genuinely care about people, and want them to live the most fulfilled life possible, and they can't do so as Atheists. This is why most people aren't Atheists, they realize it is a completely flawed ideology and philosophy. It is Nihilism.

I believe I have helped to convert people to some of my positions. It's still up to them and my contribution may be in just shaking the firmness of their opinion on a subject and then they do the rest themselves.

I can list several people whose views I have seen change after arguing with them. A few are on these boards.

Also, many people act as lurkers in debate forums who are unsure of what to think and read to find answers.

Your views on religion have changed. Not saying I played any part in that, but I would guess your debates on the subject here have. But you are the kind that needs to think that it's JUST your idea and so you will probably claim they have not or if they did it had nothing to do with any discussions you have had here.

My views on many subjects, including religion, have changed through debate and reading. I would be ashamed to claim they have not, as that would indicate I have stopped growing as a person and I hope that never happens. I don't know everything, but I am going to keep trying.

As far as religion is concerned, I am done with that part of the journey. It is nonsense. And without religion describing the nature of God there is no reason to believe in a being with no traits, charactersitics or attributes. I know where you claim to be at, but it is odd to me that you been stuck there so long. I would not bother coming into this thread except in the hopes of explaining your errors.

You could also consider the reasons you have been given. Religion has been used to limit rights and to stop people from searching for answers. It has done quite a bit of damage and so the articles of faith are sometimes challenged for those reasons.

Atheism does not lead to nihilism. That's just your absurd straw man. I am certainly not a nihilist. I have very strong values, most of them rather traditional. I just reject the idiotic ones that are only supported with, "cause God said so."

I am more fulfilled as an atheist than I ever could have been as a believer. Again, I don't know where you get your nonsense. I have seen some atheists struggle with the isolation and discrimination, but that is usually a transitional problem. Once you find a consistent morality that need not be based on believing things that do not make sense to you, it is actually quite liberating.

So our motivations here are completely different, as I've established, now let's look at what you are really illustrating in this thread, better than I could have done alone. You realize that you can't change minds on faith, so you begin to ridicule faith, and intellectually brow-beat those who have faith, but you have faith like everyone else does. Do we not have faith that physical aspects around us will remain constant? We do trust that up is up and down is down, gravity will work, oxygen will still be oxygen tomorrow... this requires FAITH! We BELIEVE these principles of physics and science, because we must! In order to make anything in logic work, we must first have FAITH!

It poses quite the dilemma for your argument, because you aren't seriously trying to change minds, and you can't logically dismiss faith... you turn to science and seek refuge from the ass handing you are getting, but again, science fails you. If we observed the inherent behaviors of ANY life form, and found a unique attribute present in the species for all of it's existence, and the species was unique and distinct from other similar DNA species, science would conclude the inherent behaviors are fundamental and necessary to the species, and the theory would prevail this had something to do with the other unique attributes. That's what we have with human spirituality, the scientific evidence that mankind is dependent upon faith in spiritual belief, and this is what distinguishes us from other similar primates.

Oh my.... It seems we are running out of rational justifications for your motivations here! And as we peel back the layers, and discard the false perceptions, it becomes ever-more clear what your purpose is. People who are living in denial, depend on the approval and support of like-minded people. It is commonly known as "codependency" in the mental health world.

It is absurd to call repeatable experiences and observations of the results or acceptance of cause and effect, matters of faith. It poses no dilemma. Maybe for you it does. Not me, I doubt it does for water or many of the other atheists.
 
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It's absolutely wrong and I just demonstrated it conclusively. As I said, using logic to prove metaphysics makes about as much sense as using faith to explain a ham sandwhich.

So Plato, Aristotle, and Descartes had no logic that they used when discerning philosophy? That's your position? Socrates was an illogical thinker too?

Just cuz YOU say it, just doesn't make it so Mott. I quoted a simplistic example of the theory that is a common tool in the application of philosophical ideas.
 
I like SM, just because I dont agree with his politics, I belive he is a good man.

For example, dispite his hate for homosexuals, I bet if he came across one, he would treat them with respect.

I don't hate homosexuals Jarod; I hate homosexuality. And yes, the ones that I have known I have treated them with respect. :good4u:
 
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