If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[ZenMode]

Jesus H. Christ. So many words...no improvement.

Here, let me help you. You wrote: "I haven't withdrawn anything. The two changes I made to the ten Commandments made it more relevant today than when God made it. That is the problem that you insist on ignoring, for reasons that are obvious."

Here is how I would have written that bolded part. You may see it as an improvement or you may consider your phrasing to be superior:

The two changes I made to the Ten Commandments made it more relevant today than when your supposed "god" wrote them.

So...does your rendition do greater justice to your position...or does mine?

To my position.

Why would the all-knowing, perfect creator of all things screw up? Why can I improve his master list of rules for all of mankind? Why would he, as @Monad Portal claims, have to send himself to fix his mistakes? I thought he was perfect. I thought he was all-knowing. I thought he existed outside of time and space. I thought he was "surprised by nothing", so why didn't he get morality perfectly right from the start? Why is he out slaughtering innocent children and drowning the world because his creation was poorly designed?

The reason why seems pretty obvious. It's because MAN wrote the rules. MAN implemented HIS flawed views of morality that another man, Jesus, then had to "correct" for the Jews. Why is that the case? Because MAN, as he has done for thousands of years, manufacturers supernatural beings and, in the case of Christianity and other religions, believers in those gods/books have to retrofit their new, updated morality into their outdated, flawed beliefs and books.

 

[Monad Portal]

To my position.

Why would the all-knowing, perfect creator of all things screw up? Why can I improve his master list of rules for all of mankind? Why would he, as @Monad Portal claims, have to send himself to fix his mistakes? I thought he was perfect. I thought he was all-knowing. I thought he existed outside of time and space. I thought he was "surprised by nothing", so why didn't he get morality perfectly right from the start? Why is he out slaughtering innocent children and drowning the world because his creation was poorly designed?

you're getting hung up on the backstory.

just implement the golden rule in your life and stfu.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Even today's legal system agrees with me. Patterns of behavior are a significant in court cases.

We are not in a court case...we are discussing (perhaps, debating) an issue.

Anyway...let's see the logic.

It's not just the Patterns, It's the contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible. It's God endorsing clearly immoral behavior and then changing his mind. That sounds a lot more like man wrote "God's" rules and then man changed his mind and then man is left trying to retrofit man's new morality into what the Bible taught.

We're seeing it happen today with homosexuality as churches (man) struggle to adjust.

So...you were not even willing to give logic a try. I don't blame you...you should not call what you are doing logical, because it is far from a product of logic. It is, as I have said, a product of a blind guess...and insistence that the blind guess is correct. (Just like the theists do.)

Anyway, I resent as much as you do, the intrusion of SOME Biblical "teachings" into our judicial system. Any laws against adult, consensual homosexual sex is bullshit...for instance. In fact, most laws against adult, consensual sex should be shitcanned.

But that has nothing to do with the blind guesses atheists and religionists make about the REALITY of existence. And fighting to end the intrusion of unwanted religious sanctions is HARMED by atheism much more than helped. Atheism will NEVER truly defeat religionism, because it is a contest between two different blind guesses. Only the truth will ever make a significant dent in religious intrusion...and the truth is WE DO NOT KNOW IF THERE ARE ANY GODS...AND WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT ANY GODS THAT MIGHT EXIST ASK OF US.

You ought to try that on for size. It might fit.

 

[Ross Dolan]

To my position.

Why would the all-knowing, perfect creator of all things screw up? Why can I improve his master list of rules for all of mankind? Why would he, as @Monad Portal claims, have to send himself to fix his mistakes? I thought he was perfect. I thought he was all-knowing. I thought he existed outside of time and space. I thought he was "surprised by nothing", so why didn't he get morality perfectly right from the start? Why is he out slaughtering innocent children and drowning the world because his creation was poorly designed?

A better question is: Why do you consider inconsistencies in this god to be an indicator that no gods exist?

 

[Monad Portal]

We are not in a court case...we are discussing (perhaps, debating) an issue.

Anyway...let's see the logic.

So...you were not even willing to give logic a try. I don't blame you...you should not call what you are doing logical, because it is far from a product of logic. It is, as I have said, a product of a blind guess...and insistence that the blind guess is correct. (Just like the theists do.)

Anyway, I resent as much as you do, the intrusion of SOME Biblical "teachings" into our judicial system. Any laws against adult, consensual homosexual sex is bullshit...for instance. In fact, most laws against adult, consensual sex should be shitcanned.

But that has nothing to do with the blind guesses atheists and religionists make about the REALITY of existence. And fighting to end the intrusion of unwanted religious sanctions is HARMED by atheism much more than helped. Atheism will NEVER truly defeat religionism, because it is a contest between two different blind guesses. Only the truth will ever make a significant dent in religious intrusion...and the truth is WE DO NOT KNOW IF THERE ARE ANY GODS...AND WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT ANY GODS THAT MIGHT EXIST ASK OF US.

You ought to try that on for size. It might fit.

morality is not a blind guess.

cooperation works and is the key to human success.

don't listen to pychotics trying to normalize their evil.

 

[ZenMode]

A better question is: Why do you consider inconsistencies in this god to be an indicator that no gods exist?

Already explained, as it relates to the Christian god, in the post you replied to with the above question.

As it relates to "unknown" gods/a creator of all, I also already explained that. Throughout time, all the things that man couldn't understand, and manufactured gods to help them explain, were proven to be explainable by science, so the argument of "well, I don't understand where all this came from, so it must have been a god" is likely nothing more than a modern version of "I don't understand where the flashing lights and loud noise in in the sky comes from, so it must be a god".

 

[ZenMode]

Already explained, as it relates to the Christian god, in the post you replied to with the above question.

As it relates to "unknown" gods/a creator of all, I also already explained that. Throughout time, all the things that man couldn't understand, and manufactured gods to help them explain, were proven to be explainable by science, so the argument of "well, I don't understand where all this came from, so it must have been a god" is likely nothing more than a modern version of "I don't understand where the flashing lights and loud noise in in the sky comes from, so it must be a god".

@Ross Dolan

So, can you explain to me why this time it's different? With the long history of man wrongly attributing events to gods, why should I believe that this time is different?

 

[Ross Dolan]

Already explained, as it relates to the Christian god, in the post you replied to with the above question.

You prattled on. You did not explain. There is no explanation, because it is an illogical argument.

As it relates to "unknown" gods/a creator of all, I also already explained that. Throughout time, all the things that man couldn't understand, and manufactured gods to help them explain, were proven to be explainable by science, so the argument of "well, I don't understand where all this came from, so it must have been a god" is likely nothing more than a modern version of "I don't understand where the flashing lights and loud noise in in the sky comes from, so it must be a god".

You simply do not understand logic...and you way over-estimate your intelligence and ability to guess properly. Lucky for all of us, people like Einstein, Hawking, Sagan, and deGrasse Tyson were more modest.

Atheists like you will continue to show contempt for religionists doing what you are also doing.

Shame that.

 

[Into the Night]

So, you believe it's moral to kill your kids for back talk? You believe it's moral to kill your neighbor for working on the Sabbath? You believe it's moral to kill your wife for not being a virgin on your wedding night?

Why are you so intent on making shit up?

 

[Into the Night]

there is obective morality.

No such thing. There is just 'morality'.

evil people hate that.

Evil have no Christian morality.

 

[Into the Night]

You prattled on. You did not explain. There is no explanation, because it is an illogical argument.

You simply do not understand logic...and you way over-estimate your intelligence and ability to guess properly. Lucky for all of us, people like Einstein, Hawking, Sagan, and deGrasse Tyson were more modest.

Atheists like you will continue to show contempt for religionists doing what you are also doing.

Shame that.

He is not an atheist.

 

[Ross Dolan]

@Ross Dolan

So, can you explain to me why this time it's different?

I do not know that it is different.

My difference with you is not found there. Our difference is that I am being honest when I say that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence...and that I do not have sufficient unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess.

With the long history of man wrongly attributing events to gods, why should I believe that this time is different?

You still don't get it. I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO BELIEVE ANYTHING. I am asking that you acknowledge that you do not know...and that you do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess.

But, like the theist/religionists upon whom you heap so much contempt...you just do not have it in you to be honest on this question.

 

[Monad Portal]

No such thing. There is just 'morality'.

there is objective morality and then there are imposter moralities.

Evil have no Christian morality.

como?

 

[ZenMode]

Why are you so intent on making shit up?

Not my fault you don't know the Bible.

 

[gfm7175]

Because enslaving free people is clearly wrong,

You're stuck in a present-day view of what 'slavery' is. Yes, THAT type of slavery is clearly wrong (and is also condemned in The Bible), but during much earlier times, slavery was a method of repaying debt (and was also a consequence of war). Any slaves were to be treated properly, as prescribed in The Bible.

As time went on, and societies changed, the institution of slavery eventually fell out of favor. Although largely unpopular in the present-day, slavery still exists today btw.

hence the world moved on to a reality that your God missed.

Nothing was "missed".

 

[ZenMode]

I do not know that it is different.

My difference with you is not found there. Our difference is that I am being honest when I say that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence...and that I do not have sufficient unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess.



You still don't get it. I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO BELIEVE ANYTHING. I am asking that you acknowledge that you do not know...and that you do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess.

But, like the theist/religionists upon whom you heap so much contempt...you just do not have it in you to be honest on this question.

The list of things I didn't witness first hand and, therefore, can't say I know is LONG.

I don't KNOW there isn't an island of magical rainbow unicorns in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. It's not

I wasn't involved in counting ballots so I don't KNOW Trump won.

Based on the evidence, I see no reason to doubt that Trump won and I see no reason to believe there's an island of magical rainbow unicorns and it would be foolish to believe Trump didn't win, it would be foolish to believe the island exists and I would be foolish to believe there are gods.

Anyone who ignores evidence and lives their lives saying "Well, you just never know!" is destined to look silly.

 

[gfm7175]

Right they're accountable if they have abused their slaves, but he won't condemn slavery. And no, king of playing dumb, I'm not talking about people who break the law and get put in prison.

Something already knew, but insist on relentlessly playing dumb. I'm talking about the kidnapping and selling of people. The type of slavery that existed in the US.

Again, things you already knew, but insist on playing dumb.

"The type of slavery that existed in the US" (slavery is still present in the USA btw) is not the only type of slavery.

And slaves don't HAVE to be mistreated, you know. They COULD be treated properly instead.

 

[gfm7175]

You are playing word games. The Bible clearly states that God endorsed all kinds of behavior that is not only immoral today, but was immoral during the life of Jesus.

Please list the book, chapter, and verse(s) in which "God endorsed all kinds of [immoral] behavior" is "clearly state[d]". I want to see this for myself.

 

[gfm7175]

I'm insist that the Bible has made it clear that it should not be considered a source for morality, because it blatantly endorses things that are immoral

Such as? You still haven't listed any "immoral things" that The Bible endorses.

Sure, it mentions all sorts of "immoral things" within its text , but mentioning them is not endorsing them.

 

[Ross Dolan]

The list of things I didn't witness first hand and, therefore, can't say I know is LONG.

I don't KNOW there isn't an island of magical rainbow unicorns in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. It's not

I wasn't involved in counting ballots so I don't KNOW Trump won.

Based on the evidence, I see no reason to doubt that Trump won and I see no reason to believe there's an island of magical rainbow unicorns and it would be foolish to believe Trump didn't win, it would be foolish to believe the island exists and I would be foolish to believe there are gods.

Anyone who ignores evidence and lives their lives saying "Well, you just never know!" is destined to look silly.

I'll tell you what "look silly."

Someone like you trying to make it seem logical to say, "There are no gods" or "It is more likely that there are no gods than that there is one."

But...atheists like you apparently want to be just like the religionists. You want to make a blind guess about the REALITY of existence...AND THEN DEFEND THAT BLIND GUESS FROM HERE TO ETERNITY.

Sad to see. But you are stuck with it.

That is why you want to argue with religionist...so that you can point out that their blind guesses (beliefs) are not able to withstand rigorous (or even casual) scrutiny. That way you do not have to defend YOUR blind guesses (beliefs.)

Not so easy to do in a discussion or argument with an agnostic type.

I say that you do not know if any gods exists...or what any that do exist are like...and that, for some reason, you are unable to just leave it at that. Instead, you want to join with the religionists in making a guess...a totally unnecessary and irrelevant guess.

Bad move, Zen.