Largest and most successful airlift in history

BartenderElite said:
Any other details on that? Because the CIC doesn't do the details & logistics on that stuff.
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The C in C gave the order to withdraw. He gave a very short timeline for completion. He gave no guidance on what to do with the stuff on the ground that was left behind. That made it end in a complete clusterfuck of a screwed up soup sandwich.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
The C in C gave the order to withdraw. He gave a very short timeline for completion. He gave no guidance on what to do with the stuff on the ground that was left behind. That made it end in a complete clusterfuck of a screwed up soup sandwich.
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If it happened under Trump, you'd be praising him. You have BDS sickness.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
The C in C gave the order to withdraw. He gave a very short timeline for completion. He gave no guidance on what to do with the stuff on the ground that was left behind. That made it end in a complete clusterfuck of a screwed up soup sandwich.
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The only thing the CIC does there is the deadline. He took the advice of the military on the remaining equipment - which they said was largely decommissioned and outdated, and was not in safe areas (so would have likely cost lives to retrieve).

If you thought the whole thing was a "shit show," that's definitely mostly on the military. I thought it was amazingly successful, and give them kudos. The idea that we'd get out of an unstable country after almost 20 years with minimal casualties is one of their great successes.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
The C in C gave the order to withdraw. He gave a very short timeline for completion. He gave no guidance on what to do with the stuff on the ground that was left behind. That made it end in a complete clusterfuck of a screwed up soup sandwich.
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If the Afghanistan withdrawal was actually an epic clusterfuck for the ages, Republicans would be running on it as a campaign issue, and Fox news pundits would be consistently talking about it.

The fact that Republicans are not exploiting it as a campaign issue is all the proof we need that the withdrawal was a reasonably competent military operation given the situational environment and risks.
 
Walt said:
The situation gave a short timeline for completion. trump handed the country over to the Taliban. The Taliban was only going to tolerate our operation there for so long.
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Biden handed the country over to the Taliban. He could have just dumped Trump's deal like he unilaterally did with so many other things Trump had done. Trying to pin what became a massive fuck up in leaving Afghanistan is Biden's to own.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
He could have just dumped Trump's deal
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The Taliban prisoners released by trump were unlikely to return to prison just because Biden rescinded the deal. trump surrendered Afghanistan to the Taliban, and it would have taken another major war to recapture it from them. Biden could have started another war, but it seemed pointless.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Biden handed the country over to the Taliban. He could have just dumped Trump's deal like he unilaterally did with so many other things Trump had done. Trying to pin what became a massive fuck up in leaving Afghanistan is Biden's to own.
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Tacit admission that Trump's deal was bad?
 
Walt said:
The situation gave a short timeline for completion. trump handed the country over to the Taliban. The Taliban was only going to tolerate our operation there for so long.
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Even so, when our own allies were caught flatfooted by the speed of Biden's departure out of Afghanistan, then it was a badly executed plan.

That's 100% on the Commander-in-Chief at the time of the execution of the plan, not the previous douchebag who started the negotiations.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Biden handed the country over to the Taliban. He could have just dumped Trump's deal like he unilaterally did with so many other things Trump had done. Trying to pin what became a massive fuck up in leaving Afghanistan is Biden's to own.
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The Taliban already controlled ~80 percent of the country by the time Biden was inaugurated.

What is the strategic political objective, and how much strategic bang for the buck do we get from trying to reconquer Afghanistan again?

If you and Trump didn't want Afghanistan to fall, you should have done a better job training the Afghan army. Trump had four years to train them, but he did such a shitty job that the Afghan army collapsed in two weeks with barely a shot fired.
 
Cypress said:
The Taliban already controlled ~80 percent of the country by the time Biden was inaugurated.

What is the strategic political objective, and how much strategic bang for the buck do we get from trying to reconquer Afghanistan again?

If you and Trump didn't want Afghanistan to fall, you should have done a better job training the Afghan army. Trump had four years to train them, but he did such a shitty job that the Afghan army collapsed in two weeks with barely a shot fired.
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what did you expect would happen when Biden pulled contractors from Bagram?
We taught the ANAF how to fight with air power as integral for EVAC and support
 
the big screw up was trying to withdrawal from Karzai international instead of Bagram
Keeping Bagram operational would allow for diplomatic staff/translators to be out first ( and the ANAF would have contractors to keep the Air up)and then the US forces last
 
anatta said:
what did you expect would happen when Biden pulled contractors from Bagram?
We taught the ANAF how to fight with air power as integral for EVAC and support
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Trump should have trained them to take care of their own equipment.

So if we had some contactors in Afghanistan, the Taliban would have been driven back and defeated?

Why didn't your plan work in the previous 20 years?
 
BartenderElite said:
If Trump had that withdrawal, with the exact same circumstances, he'd be calling it the greatest military achievement of modern times. And his supporters would repeat that over & over.
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13 Americans blown up because they left the gates to get Americans in?
No it would be the same SNAFU that Biden pulled
 
Cypress said:
Trump should have trained them to take care of their own equipment.

So if we had some contactors in Afghanistan, the Taliban would have been driven back and defeated?

Why didn't your plan work in the previous 20 years?
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get out of here. US AF is complicated stuff. we even need civilians specialist to keep it up
The Taliban WERE "driven back" Trump got the number down to 2500 and it stayed there for about 16 months while the Taliban battled the ANAF with little gains by Taliban. Biden closed Bagram in July but Contractors were already being phased out

Biden’s Afghan Exit Alarms Contractors Who Outnumber U.S. Troops
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/feder...t-alarms-contractors-who-outnumber-u-s-troops
U.S. contractors leaving Afghanistan could be more “devastating” to the Afghan security forces than the U.S. troop pullout, John Sopko, the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction, said last month.

The departure of contractors was largely ignored as the focus shifted to when Biden would withdraw the military, Sopko told a forum organized by the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

The Afghan government relies on contractors to train in using, and maintain, U.S.-supplied equipment such as Lockheed Martin Corp.’s UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters and C-130 transport aircraft, he said.
 
anatta said:
get out of here. US AF is complicated stuff. we even need civilians specialist to keep it up
The Taliban WERE "driven back" Trump got the number down to 2500 and it stayed there for about 16 months while the Taliban battled the ANAF with little gains by Taliban. Biden closed Bagram in July but Contractors were already being phased out

Biden’s Afghan Exit Alarms Contractors Who Outnumber U.S. Troops
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/feder...t-alarms-contractors-who-outnumber-u-s-troops
U.S. contractors leaving Afghanistan could be more “devastating” to the Afghan security forces than the U.S. troop pullout, John Sopko, the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction, said last month.

The departure of contractors was largely ignored as the focus shifted to when Biden would withdraw the military, Sopko told a forum organized by the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

The Afghan government relies on contractors to train in using, and maintain, U.S.-supplied equipment such as Lockheed Martin Corp.’s UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters and C-130 transport aircraft, he said.
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I spent the last 20 years listening to people say that if only we did X Y and Z, we could push on to the final victory!!


Your claim that some contractors would have tipped the scales towards a victory over the Taliban is just the latest in a long, 20 year litany of outrageously and overly optimistic prognostications.
 
Cypress said:
I spent the last 20 years listening to people say that if only we did X Y and Z, we could push on to the final victory!!


Your claim that some contractors would have tipped the scales towards a victory over the Taliban is just the latest in a long, 20 year litany of outrageously and overly optimistic prognostications.
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no i didnt say keeping the status quo of contractors would "win"
I'm saying it would have stabilized the Taliban rapid gains,and allowed for EVAC thru Bagram
 
anatta said:
no i didnt say keeping the status quo of contractors would "win"
I'm saying it would have stabilized the Taliban rapid gains,and allowed for EVAC thru Bagram
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It's well understood at this point that shortly after Trump surrendered to the Taliban in early 2020, Afghan government leaders and military commanders covertly made their own deals with the Taliban, promising to lay down their weapons in exchange for their lives being spared. That sequence of events was in place well before Biden was sworn in on 21 January, 2021.

Your little team of contractors would have had no possibility of deterring and defeating the Taliban.
 
anatta said:
13 Americans blown up because they left the gates to get Americans in?
No it would be the same SNAFU that Biden pulled
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Any American deaths are tragedies.

But to get out of a war-torn, unstable country like that with only 13 casualties? That's remarkable.

By your criteria - you think it would have only been a successful operation if there were no casualties at all? Do you think that's realistic in a situation like that?

And we would have had to keep 5,000+ there to maintain Bagram. You're already contradicting yourself - because that in itself would have likely led to more casualties.
 
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