Another example of progress over the years.

T. A. Gardner said:
So, your claim is that Atheists are amoral and have no moral foundation. That is, they feel they can do whatever the hell they please because there are no moral bounds placed on them by their denial of any higher system of moral authority
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How ridiculous. My husband is one of the most ethical people I know. He doesn't do "whatever the hell" he wants because he possesses the inner strength and morality to refrain from doing that which is hurtful and/or illegal. He doesn't need religious strictures or even secular law to do what is right. One does not need to believe in your god or some other god in order to behave ethically.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
How ridiculous. My husband is one of the most ethical people I know. He doesn't do "whatever the hell" he wants because he possesses the inner strength and morality to refrain from doing that which is hurtful and/or illegal. He doesn't need religious strictures or even secular law to do what is right. One does not need to believe in your god or some other god in order to behave ethically.
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Then he has some sort of metaphysical moral vision even if it's only a personal one hum?
 
T. A. Gardner said:
And does so by having a religious faith to one degree or another that his views are correct.
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Wrong. He has no religious faith in anything. He's an engineer by education and career. He puts his "faith," if you want to call it that, in the measurable, the provable, the quantifiable. When you cross a bridge, do you do so by putting your "faith" in engineers and inspectors and metal workers, or do you put your faith in a god?
 
T. A. Gardner said:
So, your claim is that Atheists are amoral and have no moral foundation. That is, they feel they can do whatever the hell they please because there are no moral bounds placed on them by their denial of any higher system of moral authority
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You have a lot of work cut out for yourself in improving reading comprehension.

I did not say atheists are immoral.

Like everyone else, they have free will on how to comport themselves.

What I wrote is that there is no universal atheist moral doctrine equivalent to Buddhism's eightfold path, Rabbinic Judaism, or the Confucian canon.

You can't point to a universal, binding atheist moral doctrine. That's just a simple fact.

Atheism is not a collective universal binding vision of anything. They are individuals making their own choices.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Then he has some sort of metaphysical moral vision even if it's only a personal one hum?
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No. Believe it or not, many adults operate on a plane of morality that does not rely on punishment/reward if one breaks one's own ethical guidelines or those of society. The feelings of shame or guilt when one fucks up is punishment enough, and is not satisfied till amends are made. No outside god with a heaven and a hell are needed.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
How ridiculous. My husband is one of the most ethical people I know. He doesn't do "whatever the hell" he wants because he possesses the inner strength and morality to refrain from doing that which is hurtful and/or illegal. He doesn't need religious strictures or even secular law to do what is right. One does not need to believe in your god or some other god in order to behave ethically.
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Ms. Gardner mischaracterized what I said.

I did not say atheists are amoral.
I said there is no universal, binding atheist moral doctrine.

You could get the atheists Frediech Nietzsche, Vladimir Lenin, and Christopher Hitchens around a table and none of them could point to a document, a manuscript, or a doctrine of morality that is universally agreed to represent a binding atheist moral philosophy.

That doesn't mean atheists are immoral. Many of them are more ethical than self proclaimed christians and Muslims

You could get a group of Jains around a table and they could immediately point to a universal binding moral doctrine that defines the Jain life:

The Five Vows of Jainism

No violence
No stealing
No sexual immorality
Absolute truthfulness
Non-attachment to material wealth


That is why I like Stackhouse's definition of religion as a community which shares a comprehensive and binding metaphysical moral vision.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Evangelicals, many of them, don't think that Catholics are actual Christians. Plus the Cult prefers to skip over the part where #TRE45ON never went to church, but the Bidens do.
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I know, my Brother in Law hates them more than jews.
 
Cypress said:
That is why I like Stackhouse's definition of religion as a community which shares a comprehensive and binding metaphysical moral vision.
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Whereas atheists have no "atheism community" at all. There's no symbol that they have as jewelry or stuck to their car. No secret handshake. No special book shared by all. No creeds or chants or songs or histories. IOW, it is not a religion. It's the absence of religion. Claiming that it is is like claiming that dark -- the absence of light -- is some other form of light.
 
All major religions are for the weak and/or the ignorant and/or the desperate.

Just a bunch of clubs where people take 'leaps of faith' to believe in mystical figureheads just to stop themselves from jumping out of windows.
And they run around, like a bunch of ignorant children, insisting that their 'God Club' is the best one.

:rolleyes:

Religion?
By FAR, humanities dumbest, mass-market invention.
 
Jarod said:
I know, my Brother in Law hates them more than jews.
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Catholics? Why does he hate them? And why Jews?

My mom did not hate them, but she cried for weeks when my oldest brother announced his engagement to a Catholic girl and his intention of taking Catholic instruction so that they could be married in her church. She cried somewhat less when my other older brother did the same. She didn't bat an eye when years later I married a Catholic guy, possibly because I didn't become one as well. I asked her repeatedly why she thought it was so terrible that it needed so many tears. She said that they weren't really Christians and didn't have a "personal relationship with Jesus" like us Lutherans supposedly had. Today she would have been very much at home in a typical evangelical/fundie church.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Whereas atheists have no "atheism community" at all. There's no symbol that they have as jewelry or stuck to their car. No secret handshake. No special book shared by all. No creeds or chants or songs or histories. IOW, it is not a religion. It's the absence of religion. Claiming that it is is like claiming that dark -- the absence of light -- is some other form of light.
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Exactly right, there is no universal community of atheists, no binding universal moral philosophy, no administration or bureaucracy, no iconography, no nothing except a rejection of deism

Comparing atheism to a religion does not pass the laugh test.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Catholics? Why does he hate them? And why Jews?

My mom did not hate them, but she cried for weeks when my oldest brother announced his engagement to a Catholic girl and his intention of taking Catholic instruction so that they could be married in her church. She cried somewhat less when my other older brother did the same. She didn't bat an eye when years later I married a Catholic guy, possibly because I didn't become one as well. I asked her repeatedly why she thought it was so terrible that it needed so many tears. She said that they weren't really Christians and didn't have a "personal relationship with Jesus" like us Lutherans supposedly had. Today she would have been very much at home in a typical evangelical/fundie church.
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I could never get a straight answer abotu Jews, except they don't believe in Jesus. The Catholics are worse because they worship the pope instead of Jesus.
 
Jarod said:
I could never get a straight answer abotu Jews, except they don't believe in Jesus. The Catholics are worse because they worship the pope instead of Jesus.
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My mom thought that they worshiped all the saints, too. She based that on the images/statues of saints in a typical Catholic church, plus she mistook asking a saint to intercede with God on one's behalf as praying to the saint to do whatever it was the petitioner wanted.

Ignorance truly does beget dislike.
 
Jarod said:
I could never get a straight answer abotu Jews, except they don't believe in Jesus. The Catholics are worse because they worship the pope instead of Jesus.
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What an ignorant post. Catholics do not worship the Pope. He is the figurehead for the Church on Earth. They honor and respect him, but God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are the focus of worship. Don’t spread stupid stuff.
 
McRocket said:
All major religions are for the weak and/or the ignorant and/or the desperate.

Just a bunch of clubs where people take 'leaps of faith' to believe in mystical figureheads just to stop themselves from jumping out of windows.
And they run around, like a bunch of ignorant children, insisting that their 'God Club' is the best one.

:rolleyes:

Religion?
By FAR, humanities dumbest, mass-market invention.
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But, you don’t think you’re better than anyone else. The problem is other people who may come to a different opinion about you after reading all your posts.
 
Jarod said:
I could never get a straight answer abotu Jews, except they don't believe in Jesus. The Catholics are worse because they worship the pope instead of Jesus.
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Total horse mierda.

Have you ever told the truth in your life?
 
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