moon
Satire for Sanity
Yes- Neo-Nazis shelled Donetsk and Lugansk for eight years. I'm sorry if that torpedoes your narrative- but thems the facts.
Zelensky has my vote
- Thread starter BartenderElite
- Start date
Yes- Neo-Nazis shelled Donetsk and Lugansk for eight years. I'm sorry if that torpedoes your narrative- but thems the facts.
Earlier, I said that Zelenskyy should resign and offer peace terms to Russia.
I now think that was premature...somewhat.
I still feel like Zelenskyy should offer to resign IF it would stop Russia's invasion.
Failing that?
I feel that he should offer to let the Donbass regions go.
They voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine in 2014. Just as the Crimea did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums
This is - in theory - why he began the invasion in the first place.
On the request of protection from the Donbass, autonomous regions.
He should offer this as an olive branch to Putin to stop the destruction of his country and the death of gigantic numbers of his people.
But this 'fighting to the end' bullshit?
With no middle ground?
'Death or glory'?
When Ukraine has virtually NO chance to win - short of direct, NATO involvement?
Just shows what a pathetic, cowardly and disgusting leader he is...caring more about his ego than his people's suffering.
Anyone that is for such egomaniacal Hitlerism is probably galactically stupid and is certainly, incredibly insensitive to the tremendous suffering that 'fighting to the end' will inflict on the innocent Ukrainian civilians.
Only a pig would be for such a strategy.
Okay...I admit it was wrong of me to suggest that Ukraine give up COMPLETELY, right away.
But there HAS to be a middle ground.
There are LOTS of options short of total capitulation.
And I don't see Zelenskyy offering ANY of those.
All the coward does is call for more help.
Trying to get more people killed to save his political skin.
I don't see him offering to resign to save his country.Offering to give up the Donbass (whose people don't want to be part of Ukraine any longer) to stop the carnage.
You people who think he is acting brave (while staying safe in his hideout) - have no fucking clue what 'bravery' even is.
Just like Hitler did in his bunker...he is calling out everyone to take up arms.
Outsiders, Ukrainian civilians (yeah - like untrained civilians won't get slaughtered), volunteers...anyone to save his political skin.
And he will sacrifice his ENTIRE country.
ALL of his people...just to not give in to Russia.
Anyone who calls that brave is ignorant (read: stupid), weak and probably a coward themselves.
Or - at the very least - a confirmation of the Milgram experiments findings.
I will not debate this as most of the people in this thread (though not all) are '450 volters' (Milgram).
Mindless simpletons who will do and believe whatever they are told to believe by their 'leaders' and the MSM.
People like that make me unliterally sick - though I realize they cannot help themselves.
And are not worth a second of my time or energy in so far as debating is concerned.
Bye.
I now think that was premature...somewhat.
I still feel like Zelenskyy should offer to resign IF it would stop Russia's invasion.
Failing that?
I feel that he should offer to let the Donbass regions go.
They voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine in 2014. Just as the Crimea did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums
This is - in theory - why he began the invasion in the first place.
On the request of protection from the Donbass, autonomous regions.
He should offer this as an olive branch to Putin to stop the destruction of his country and the death of gigantic numbers of his people.
But this 'fighting to the end' bullshit?
With no middle ground?
'Death or glory'?
When Ukraine has virtually NO chance to win - short of direct, NATO involvement?
Just shows what a pathetic, cowardly and disgusting leader he is...caring more about his ego than his people's suffering.
Anyone that is for such egomaniacal Hitlerism is probably galactically stupid and is certainly, incredibly insensitive to the tremendous suffering that 'fighting to the end' will inflict on the innocent Ukrainian civilians.
Only a pig would be for such a strategy.
Okay...I admit it was wrong of me to suggest that Ukraine give up COMPLETELY, right away.
But there HAS to be a middle ground.
There are LOTS of options short of total capitulation.
And I don't see Zelenskyy offering ANY of those.
All the coward does is call for more help.
Trying to get more people killed to save his political skin.
I don't see him offering to resign to save his country.Offering to give up the Donbass (whose people don't want to be part of Ukraine any longer) to stop the carnage.
You people who think he is acting brave (while staying safe in his hideout) - have no fucking clue what 'bravery' even is.
Just like Hitler did in his bunker...he is calling out everyone to take up arms.
Outsiders, Ukrainian civilians (yeah - like untrained civilians won't get slaughtered), volunteers...anyone to save his political skin.
And he will sacrifice his ENTIRE country.
ALL of his people...just to not give in to Russia.
Anyone who calls that brave is ignorant (read: stupid), weak and probably a coward themselves.
Or - at the very least - a confirmation of the Milgram experiments findings.
I will not debate this as most of the people in this thread (though not all) are '450 volters' (Milgram).
Mindless simpletons who will do and believe whatever they are told to believe by their 'leaders' and the MSM.
People like that make me unliterally sick - though I realize they cannot help themselves.
And are not worth a second of my time or energy in so far as debating is concerned.
Bye.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello moon,
That is not attacking Russia. That is attacking Russian infiltrators into Ukraine.
That is not attacking Russia. That is attacking Russian infiltrators into Ukraine.
'Russia will stop invasion if Ukraine agrees to the following demand: constitutional amendment ruling out membership of any blocs (NATO); Ukraine must recognize Crimea as Russian, and Donetsk and Lugansk as indepenent states.'
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/here-are-all-latest-news-and-developments-ukraine-war
No idea if this is true or not.
But if it is?
I think this is a VERY reasonable set of demands.
Both the Crimea and the Donbass regions OVERWHELMINGLY do NOT want to go back to Ukraine.
And NATO should have died when the USSR did.
No doubt you hardcore morons who want to 'fight to the death' and/or you '450 volt'ers who believe/admire whatever you are told to believe/admire do not agree.
COMPLETELY useless pricks - all of you whom fit into these two categories.
You people ruin the world for the rest of us with a decent brain and a spine not made of wet spaghetti.
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/here-are-all-latest-news-and-developments-ukraine-war
No idea if this is true or not.
But if it is?
I think this is a VERY reasonable set of demands.
Both the Crimea and the Donbass regions OVERWHELMINGLY do NOT want to go back to Ukraine.
And NATO should have died when the USSR did.
No doubt you hardcore morons who want to 'fight to the death' and/or you '450 volt'ers who believe/admire whatever you are told to believe/admire do not agree.
COMPLETELY useless pricks - all of you whom fit into these two categories.
You people ruin the world for the rest of us with a decent brain and a spine not made of wet spaghetti.
moon
Satire for Sanity
moon
Satire for Sanity
No- the people of the Donbas, - Donetsk and Lugansk- are Ukrainian nationals, Russian-speaking Ukrainian nationals, who rejected the puppet Ukrainian government which was installed after the US-backed illegal coup. They are not 'infiltrators ', they are Ukrainians. You should change your reading habits before it's too late for you to catch up.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello moon,
Right. No Russian infiltrators.
Why would anybody in their right mind want to be part of Russia? No rights, no freedom, no freedom of speech. Hopelessly corrupt. No future. Ukraine was building a future. Those people had it good until Putin came in and started shooting up the place.
Right. No Russian infiltrators.
Why would anybody in their right mind want to be part of Russia? No rights, no freedom, no freedom of speech. Hopelessly corrupt. No future. Ukraine was building a future. Those people had it good until Putin came in and started shooting up the place.
moon
Satire for Sanity
You maybe missed the coup, the declarations of independence, the eight years of shelling and the 14,000 dead people.
It’s not our choice, it is the choice of the Ukrainian people and why should they bow to the will of the Russian bully? His attack was needless.
You seem to contradict yourself. The Ukrainians’ spines are not made of spaghetti.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
moon
Satire for Sanity
The Russians toppled the pro-Russian Ukrainian president ? You'd best back out of this discussion, Polly.
Gondwanaland
Verified User
They're already winning, you dumbfuck.
Gondwanaland
Verified User
Some more Russian propaganda from a piece of shit who licks Putin's urethra daily.
Gondwanaland
Verified User
The Democrat party is just as shitty as the Republican one, dipshit. You're the one here who hates Democracy.
Gondwanaland
Verified User
Aw, here to defend your buddy with his russian bootlicking?
So the best you have to offer?
The total sum of your intellect comes up with that?
Enough said about your IQ and education.
I am chatting with a moron who probably gets laid when his sister lets him fuck her.
Have a nice day.
Geeko Sportivo
Verified User
Well, Donald Trump arranged a deal with the Taliban for them to surrender.
History will mark Aug. 15, 2021, as the date that the Afghan government collapsed and the Taliban retook control over this troubled and war-torn country. But the real date that the Taliban’s victory was assured is Feb. 29, 2020, the day the Trump administration signed what it characterized as a “peace” deal with the Taliban.
Of course, the agreement was not, and could not possibly have been, a “peace” deal since one of the parties currently at war — the Afghan government — was not a signatory. Rather, this was a “withdrawal” agreement between the U.S. and the Taliban that set the terms for the complete departure of American troops from Afghanistan by May 2021.
What did the United States gain in exchange for this withdrawal, for which the Taliban had been fighting for 20 years? Nothing but vague, unenforceable promises that the Taliban would not engage in hostilities against the departing U.S. troops and would “send a clear message” to al Qaeda that it “had no place” in Afghanistan. So eager Trump was to withdraw, we did not even hold out for a clear, firm commitment that the Taliban would not provide aid, safe harbor or weaponry to al Qaeda and like-minded groups. The agreement contained no enforcement mechanisms and included no penalties on the Taliban for failing to comply with its terms.
Once the agreement was signed, the fate of the Afghan government was signed, sealed and delivered — the Taliban had practically won the war. There was no way that the government could possibly survive.
The fact that the United States entered into negotiations and then an agreement with the Taliban, without even inviting the Afghan government to the table, undercut the power and legitimacy of the government. The citizenry, including those in the national armed services and police, could plainly see that its own government was being ignored, a helpless bystander in critical discussions about the country’s future. After we had cut the legs out from under this government and rendered it a paper tiger, it is no wonder that when those serving in the Afghan army and police were asked to fight, most said, “No, thanks.”
The agreement also did absolutely nothing to attempt to bring about a peaceful settlement of the war between the Afghan government and the Taliban. A genuine peace deal would have made our withdrawal contingent on the progress of peace negotiations between the Afghan government and the Taliban. But it did not. Trump agreed unconditionally to bring down U.S. troop levels to 8,600 by mid-July 2020 and totally withdraw by May 2021.
The agreement anticipated there would be peace negotiations, but in August, Trump voluntarily cut troop levels down to 4,500, even more quickly than required by the agreement, even though negotiations had not even begun. This was a clear signal there would be no linkage between withdrawals and peace, contrary to what U.S. diplomats were telling the parties. This signal was received loud and clear by the Taliban. They balked at starting negotiations until December, and even then, had zero incentive to make any concessions since Trump had already announced that there would be only 2,500 troops in Afghanistan by the time he left office, the smallest U.S. force in 20 years. It was clear to the Taliban that the Americans were quickly headed for the exits.
When the fighting season began again this year, the only hope for the Afghan government was to show that it could stand up to the Taliban even with reduced American support to gain leverage at the bargaining table. But results on the ground were just the opposite. The Taliban gobbled up territory more quickly than it had in years. As the Taliban’s power increased, it had even less reason to engage in peace negotiations.
To stem the Taliban’s momentum on the ground, the Biden administration would have had to not only abrogate the Trump withdrawal agreement but also deploy more troops and get them more deeply involved in the fighting. This would have breached Biden’s campaign commitment to end the war in Afghanistan and ran against the strong bipartisan public support for withdrawal.