I don't like the idea of forcing a person to join a union in order to work somewhere. To me it goes against individual freedom and the American ideal of opportunity. If there is a business that has a union then a new employee should be able to choose between joining or not. They are there for the job and applied to work for that business not for the union. I don't have any problem with someone joining a union if that's what they want to do but the equal choice should also be not to join it. You'd both be doing your job either way but you'd both have the freedom of choice.
You have no right to work.....
- Thread starter NOVA
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PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
the fact that in every state that has passed "right to work" laws union membership has dropped considerably, proves that people were forced to be members of unions against their will...........
Billy Batts
Verified User
What about the American Idea of freedom of assembly, and freedom of association? Are you against unions, or paying union dues? That is what a right to work laws are about, dues is required to bargain the contract and a member that does not pay dues drives up the cost to the other members. If you honestly believe as an individual, you can bargain a better contract for yourself, there is nothing to stop you from doing that in a shop or workplace where a Collective Bargaining Agreement does not exist. Most workplaces are non-union so this idea that a right to work has been violated when you are "working" in a shop that is unionized, makes no sense. What freedom have you lost by accepting a job with an employer that has a Collective Bargaining Agreement with his employees? You have the right to work elsewhere if you do not like the terms of the agreement.
The freedom of association goes both ways. You have a freedom to unionize just as you have to not associate with it. I don't know enough about working for places with unions or anything like that since I'm still in college and most of my money comes from competition and manual labor (cleaning stables and things). All I was saying was that joining a union should not be a condition of employment. You are working for the company not the union.
Billy Batts
Verified User
1) That is what I said, you do not have to accept a job where the employer has terms of employment outlined in a Collective Bargaining agreement with his employees. So we agree you have the right "not" to associate.
2) Then don't give expert commentary. I have worked in various jobs since 1975, and I can assure you that: you are much more secure, your pay is higher,and you have better benefits in a union setting than a non - union setting. Let me show you an example: as of now you shovel shit to pay for college. Nothing wrong with that the world needs shit shovlers. Let say you decide to make it a career choice,as a business. You invest in some rubber boots, a truck, shovel, etc. And you independently contract your labor. Business is booming so you have to employ shit shovlers at whatever wage. Years go by you no longer shovel shit you own, and run a company of over 100 employees; because you went to college and you are a smart guy. Now lets say one of your employees demands an increase in wage, and benefits. You feel he is not entitled to an increase,and neither are the rest of your shit shovlers. The shit shovlers are not happy with the arrangement, and form or join a labor union. Now all the employees demand better conditions,and wages, and you are going to have to go to the table and craft an agreement with them. That is how,and why a union is formed, or joined.
3) You are still working for the company,and have to satisfy your employer, a contract does not change that. The only obligation you have to the union is a monthly dues arrangement. Right to work laws want to remove you of that obligation,and in doing so weaken you and your co- workers bargaining power. The only time anyone works for a union is when they are working for a union, or voted in to a union office. No matter what the employer runs the company whether it is union or not. The union can not tell the employer how to run the company, how many people he has to hire, or lay off, or any other business decision.
And no your dues does not go toward political candidates.....???
Either you have serious mental problem or are extremely ignorant of reality....
A smaller corp, say about 4000 union employees, paying an avg. or 1 hour wage per week, per employee, would net about 5,000,000 dollars a year....where the fuck do you imagine all that money is going....hot dogs at the union meetings?
That's all dandy and fine. But they shouldn't expect the same pay or benefits as those negotiated by the union. Negotiate your own hours, pay and benefits. Otherwise, you're a freeloader.
And I can assure you, I worked for a union shop for 36 years and my wife worked for a non union manufacturing corp.....her wages and benefits were at least equal to mine considering the different kind of work we did....my work being considerably more technical than hers so the wage was adjusted accordingly....she had medical benefits the same as mine, same vacation, same seniority protection, same 401K plans, even a respectable retirement plan....
she could actually request being laid off in a slow down if she had seniority, with guaranteed call back, I could not. It was strictly last in, first out....
Security?...I agree with that aspect....you can be a lazy fuck up in a union shop and not get canned very easily,and I knew many of those......
And right to work laws do not remove any obligation to pay or not pay union dues....the right it does give you is the right to join or not join a union according to
your own conscience....the only place that is force is in a union shop where the law forces you to join a union or not work there....
guess its just a matter of your perspective,huh?
The retort is lame at best, the point is NOT about a plumber or electrician being a union person...the point is YOU hiring the best person at the lowest cost....
just what any and every employer does when hiring an employee without being coerced with picketers or violence, as is common in a 'work action'.....
You want YOUR rights to over ride the rights of others is the bottom line....
Unions and form and employees can join as they desire even in right to work states.....no freedoms are lost.
Billy Batts
Verified User
The one who is flaunting their ignorance is you. Unions are obligated not to just the IRS, but the Department of Labor for auditing. Every penny collected has to be accounted for to the DOL ,and any PAC money has to be authorized by the member. All money collected by a union must be reported annually to theD.O.L using the LM-2 form. So stop talking out of your ass.
Dues generally include: Organizing expenses; Office equipment and regular administration expenses; Attorneys to assist in negotiations, grievances and arbitration;
Training; Research into companies and industries to gather information for negotiations and organizing; and Accountants to analyze the company's books.
Also a shop employing 4000 union members could a hardly be considered small. Comcast has 4000 union employees nationwide, hardly a Mom and Pop outfit.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
that isn't changed by "right to work" laws......just the opposite.....if you are required to join the union, there is no freedom of association......association is mandatory if there is no right to work law.....
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
saying you don't have to work does not create freedom of association.....would you have used the same argument in the 50s to tell blacks they don't HAVE to eat at Woolworth's?......
Billy Batts
Verified User
1) If your wife was hired as a non -union employee, she was considered an "at-will" employee, so she had no seniority rights. Unless she had an individual contract of employment waiving the "at-will" presumption. If your wife had it so great why didn't you work at her place of business, instead of being hobbled by a union contract for 36 years, with a bunch of lazy co-workers? Because you are full of shit that is why.
2) Total Bullshit not without a contract. Peddle that to some dumb fucker.
3) Sounds like you have some experience being a lazy fuck up. I doubt you know more than a handful of union employees given that line, far to few to make that broad a statement. If you believe laziness in unique to union shops you real do not have a clue.
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Billy Batts
Verified User
It is relevant to the post I was replying to. The rest of your rant is ill informed Bagger hogwash I do not waste time addressing.
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Billy Batts
Verified User
And I perceive you as a knuckle head. In non right to work states, you do not have to be a member of the union, but you have to pay a fee for negotiating the contract. Right to work you do not even pay that, in those states you are just a free loading leach.
Sorry sonny....my company had up to 7000 employees, and I knew only one, ONE, that did not belong to the union, attend or vote on contracts, or pay dues....so when I was
working, 4000 employees was a medium sized corp...and I personally knew quite a few, still due as a matter of fact.
I had no say in how my dues money was spent....majority rules, you know....today you can request in writing that your portion of those dues not go to political groups....
Big whoop dee doo....whats that amount to....12 or 14 hundred out those millions collected each and every year....I guess they could tell those auditors my money was spent
on paper clips for the union hall....
The whole point of this subject is that you pinheads refuse to realize the unintended consequences of those laws that protect you, have and impact of other people
that may not share your views....and those people have rights too....whether its labor laws, gun rights that effect innocent gun owners, or so called minority rights that
may force you six year daughter to change into her gym shorts, or use the toilet beside her male classmates.....laws in impede the rights of innocent citizens are bad laws.
They become victims .
Althea
Althea told me...
In many cases, the union does provide the bennies. Other contract terms are fought for by the union. As such, those who don't join the union should be subjected to terms that the employer agrees to separately.
Or, said worker should look for a non union shop. There are many that pay almost the same as a union shop due solely to competition.
Thats the unintended consequences of adhering to the US Constitution that must protect the freedoms of everyone.....no one is forcing you to join that union....and no
one has a right to force you....thats your choice alone....join then STFU, or don't join and STFU...your choice.
Althea
Althea told me...
There is an old saying among self employed people....'If you want to work for nothing, you'll always have plenty of work'.