WI collective bargaining changes.... already showing positive signs...

[DamnYankee]

No you fucking slime ball.......you bunch of un American GARBAGE???

LOL Looks like I hit a nerve. Once again the lib'tard gets all emotional.

 

[Bfgrn]

Public unions themselves are wrong. Just existing.

You lie in the "50 years of UNIONS AND collective bargaining" point you bring up.

The "94 cents of every dollar into health care benefits" crap that you seem to be pushing comes at the cost of me, and many others like me who are having their healthcare cut,,,,, to give to unions.

You can 'emote' all you want, but I don't fucking lie...

Wisconsin’s state and local employees earn 4.8% less per hour in total compensation than their peers in the private sector. That number jumps to 25% for college-educated employees. The Economic Policy Institute (EPI) found that, on average, Wisconsin’s public employees with a bachelor’s degree earn $61,668 in total compensation; their peers working for private employers earn $82,134 in wages and benefits.

And although Gov. Scott Walker is earning $144,423 as a public sector employee with “some college” education, his pay package is not typical. Public sector employees who attended college but did not earn a diploma earn an average $46,707 in wages and benefits, while those in the private sector earn 7% more, or $50,324, EPI found.

The 94 cents of every dollar YOU spend is going towards WHAT it should go towards...health care coverage. Only 6 cents of YOUR dollar goes toward operating costs, including profit. It it the best per dollar VALUE for the taxpayers and the best coverage per dollar spent for teachers.

 

[DamnYankee]

If they were smart they'd work for the private sector.

 

[Bfgrn]

If they were smart they'd work for the private sector.

Yea, who needs teachers or people who give back to society. They should become self centered and greedy just like you right wing TURDS.

 

[DamnYankee]

Yea, who needs teachers or people who give back to society. They should become self centered and greedy just like you right wing TURDS.

LOL Greed is good. When are you lib'tards going to figure that out?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

No. The way life works is that you have the right to negotiate and charge what the market will bear for your skill and services and not what some hack politician dictates to you. This is just another example of a right wing double standard in which they are all for freedom and democracy......but only for themselves.

Yet MORE left wingnut bullshit. The workers in WI STILL have the right to negotiate for higher wages. They STILL have the right to go somewhere else if they think they can earn more (ie, private schools). How many of those union workers are being paid MORE than they are worth Mott? How many are being paid MORE than the market will bare for their level of work? In a 'free market'... you know, the ones where people earn what the market will bare.... there is no 'tenure'. There are no 'worker pools' consisting of workers that don't actually work but are paid anyway.

What Walker is doing in Wisconsin is stupid, short sighted and self serving. What sort of public services are you going to have with a minimum wage mentality?

Not a good one... which is why it is quite nice that isn't anywhere close to what is happening in WI... pretty pathetic straw man.

Why are good ole boy hack politicians worth 6 figure incomes when they produce nothing where as those in public service who actually do produce you want to relegate to a minimum wage standard of living?

Great question. Perhaps you should ask Obama who has 400+ workers in the White House with HOW many 'czars' earning $170k?

Do you have any idea what that would do to the quality of public service? How it would degrade education, promote police corruption, create a shortage of nurses at public health centers cause they can make more in the private sector, advocate incompetent morons working as firemen cause competent people won't risk their lives and work for the substandard wages and working conditions that these idiot hack politicians would dictate to them.

LMAO... they are NOT being paid 'substandard wages' you half wit. Not even close.

You right wingers need to get it through your heads that public service people, particularly professional caliber people, have just as much right to negotiate what the market will bear for their skills and services as anyone in the private sector does. That's what freedom and democracy is all about. It doesn't just apply to the good ole boys club. Negotiating with these people when the market (i.e. the tax payers) cannot bear the cost of their services is fine but taking away their rights is no solution to the problem. It's tyranny, plain and simple.

You dumbass left wingers need to get it through your heads that the union members STILL have the right to negotiate for higher wages and better benefits. The ONLY thing that changed is HOW they can do it. No longer can they simply bribe politicians and coerce them to voting for higher wages and benefits than the market will bare in exchange for votes for office. Now the unions must negotiate with their TRUE counterpart.... the public/voters/taxpayers.

Funny how many states don't have the union protections that WI had.... yet they still are not in anarchy as many on the left such as yourself continue to pretend will happen. Heaven forbid we ask the union members to pay for a portion of their own benefits, contribute to their own retirements etc....

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

No. The way life works is that you have the right to negotiate and charge what the market will bear for your skill and services and not what some hack politician dictates to you. This is just another example of a right wing double standard in which they are all for freedom and democracy......but only for themselves.

Yet MORE left wingnut bullshit. The workers in WI STILL have the right to negotiate for higher wages. They STILL have the right to go somewhere else if they think they can earn more (ie, private schools). How many of those union workers are being paid MORE than they are worth Mott? How many are being paid MORE than the market will bare for their level of work? In a 'free market'... you know, the ones where people earn what the market will bare.... there is no 'tenure'. There are no 'worker pools' consisting of workers that don't actually work but are paid anyway.

What Walker is doing in Wisconsin is stupid, short sighted and self serving. What sort of public services are you going to have with a minimum wage mentality?

Not a good one... which is why it is quite nice that isn't anywhere close to what is happening in WI... pretty pathetic straw man.

Why are good ole boy hack politicians worth 6 figure incomes when they produce nothing where as those in public service who actually do produce you want to relegate to a minimum wage standard of living?

Great question. Perhaps you should ask Obama who has 400+ workers in the White House with HOW many 'czars' earning $170k?

Do you have any idea what that would do to the quality of public service? How it would degrade education, promote police corruption, create a shortage of nurses at public health centers cause they can make more in the private sector, advocate incompetent morons working as firemen cause competent people won't risk their lives and work for the substandard wages and working conditions that these idiot hack politicians would dictate to them.

LMAO... they are NOT being paid 'substandard wages' you half wit. Not even close.

You right wingers need to get it through your heads that public service people, particularly professional caliber people, have just as much right to negotiate what the market will bear for their skills and services as anyone in the private sector does. That's what freedom and democracy is all about. It doesn't just apply to the good ole boys club. Negotiating with these people when the market (i.e. the tax payers) cannot bear the cost of their services is fine but taking away their rights is no solution to the problem. It's tyranny, plain and simple.

You dumbass left wingers need to get it through your heads that the union members STILL have the right to negotiate for higher wages and better benefits. The ONLY thing that changed is HOW they can do it. No longer can they simply bribe politicians and coerce them to voting for higher wages and benefits than the market will bare in exchange for votes for office. Now the unions must negotiate with their TRUE counterpart.... the public/voters/taxpayers.

Funny how many states don't have the union protections that WI had.... yet they still are not in anarchy as many on the left such as yourself continue to pretend will happen. Heaven forbid we ask the union members to pay for a portion of their own benefits, contribute to their own retirements etc....

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Protecting workers? OK....I need a good laugh. Please explain that little piece of utter stupidity for me. Wow, I'm really awed by your compassion and your sincere interest in the well being of those who don't belong to the good ole boy club. How the fuck are you looking out for their best interest by denying them a basic fundamental human right that in a capitalist society you can organize to charge what the market will bear for your services? Please explain to me how that's in my best interest.....and try not to make me laugh my ass off at you in the process.

1) NOT one of their rights has been taken away
2) Like Bfgrn, you make the mistake of thinking the unions are the ONLY workers. What about the OTHER workers Mott... the ones OUTSIDE of the union... do they not deserve protection? Do they not deserve to be heard? To have THEIR interests protected?
3) You are nothing more than a union shill who bitches and moans about anything that might take away some of the power of the unions.

For the one millionth time Mott.... DO THEY OR DO THEY NOT STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO NEGOTIATE HIGHER WAGES AND BENEFITS VIA A REFERENDUM??? WHY DO YOU CONTINUE, IN THREAD AFTER THREAD, TO AVOID ANSWERING THIS QUESTION MOTT?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Of course you are attacking teachers. You are questioning how many hours they work, then you joyfully support cutting their benefits and their pay.

You are such a pathetic hack. I am not attacking teachers. I only pointed out the hours they work RELATIVE to the 'median' family. Because it MATTERS when you are whining about how 'little' they make. If a person, teacher or not, works 180 days a year and makes $44k and a second person works 200 days a year and makes $46k.... then it MATTERS you fucking moron how many days/hours they are working if you are going to compare their incomes.

These are people that MAKE $43,000...And you attack teachers by attacking THEIR union.

See what I mean, you go back and state what they make... NOW.... compare their hours worked per year to those 'median' families hours worked per year. Can you do that moron?

Teachers or any other worker has every RIGHT to belong to a union if that is what THEY CHOOSE. Or does personal choice mean YOU get to decide for them? And with that right to unionize comes the right to collective bargaining. Instead, these teachers health care insurance and other benefits will be dictated. The word 'bargaining' seems to be lost on you.

STRAW MAN ALERT. No one said they don't have the right to belong to a union you fucking hack. NO ONE.

It is quite comical that you are bitching about their health insurance being 'dictated' in terms of benefits when you are a proud supporter of Obama care.

If I posted an article from Moveon.org you would be all over my 'source'. But you post an article from a right wing equivalent, and we are supposed to take it as gospel?

STRAW MAN ALERT

Your article is a right wing hit piece written by a hack who fails to mention some crucial facts:

and now we see the reason for your previous straw man. You wanted to attack my 'source' so you pretend that I would have done the same. Pretty sad.

These teachers lost MORE benefits that have a monetary value, thus MORE cuts in compensation:

* The new rules also cut sick days from 10 to five

* Eliminate teacher pay for emergency school closings, such as snow days

* District leaders now have the option of furloughing staff members.

And your hit piece touts a savings of 1.5 million, but it failed to mention:

* The school board eliminated 14.49 full-time equivalent positions last month
AND
* In April, the school board rejected a proposal from the Kaukauna Education Association to extend the union's contract and incorporate pension and healthcare concessions along with a wage freeze, a move the union projected could save the district about $1.8 million next year. So they wouldn't have had to fire people.

NOW, let's get to the ONLY point that is not fiscal reductions the teachers and union had ALREADY agreed on from the beginning.

The so called 'why did WEA go from a large increase in premiums (when there was NO competition) to 'meeting the lowest bid' when there WAS competition?'

Here you are claiming some sort of collusion or malfeasance. I am willing to bet it has NOTHING to do with either.

Can you answer this question? Are these teachers getting the same coverage they would have had with the original WEA Trust plan? If not, then they are losing MORE compensation.

Do you understand a government bid process? Because I was involved for years as a bidder. The school district had to write a set of 'specs'...in the case of insurance, it would specify the size, scope, exclusions and co-pays etc. that would be the minimum specifications. WEA Trust could meet the lowest bid because the specs probably call for MUCH LESS coverage for the teachers. But you little scurvy turds don't care about quality, value or people's health and well being...insurance is insurance, just like a Yugo and a Mercedes are both cars.

LMAO.... funny, can't help but notice you provide NO source for your data.... I will wait until you do.

 

[The Dude]

true that if they were smarter.
Listen, the weakest students go into education. Period

Now, BF would not know that as he couldn't even get into college.

 

[Bfgrn]

1) NOT one of their rights has been taken away
2) Like Bfgrn, you make the mistake of thinking the unions are the ONLY workers. What about the OTHER workers Mott... the ones OUTSIDE of the union... do they not deserve protection? Do they not deserve to be heard? To have THEIR interests protected?
3) You are nothing more than a union shill who bitches and moans about anything that might take away some of the power of the unions.

For the one millionth time Mott.... DO THEY OR DO THEY NOT STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO NEGOTIATE HIGHER WAGES AND BENEFITS VIA A REFERENDUM??? WHY DO YOU CONTINUE, IN THREAD AFTER THREAD, TO AVOID ANSWERING THIS QUESTION MOTT?

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING is if someone can swim across an Olympic size pool, they should have no problems if you drop them out in the middle of the ocean, I mean they CAN swim can't they?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING is if someone can swim across an Olympic size pool, they should have no problems if you drop them out in the middle of the ocean, I mean they CAN swim can't they?

Your desperation is clearly showing. Let me guess... you too are afraid to answer the question?

 

[Bfgrn]

Your desperation is clearly showing. Let me guess... you too are afraid to answer the question?

HERE is what we know as FACT...

Scott Walker is intent on busting the unions. He made that CLEAR in his conversation with who he thought was cartel polluter David Koch. So everything he and Republicans did is designed, crafted and written to achieve THAT objective. BUT, you take Scott Walker at his word that he is only doing these things for fiscal reasons.

So answer me this, are you obtuse, dense and a moron or are you just a scum bag who has no ethics, honesty or morals like Scott Walker?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

HERE is what we know as FACT...

Scott Walker is intent on busting the unions. He made that CLEAR in his conversation with who he thought was cartel polluter David Koch. So everything he and Republicans did is designed, crafted and written to achieve THAT objective. BUT, you take Scott Walker at his word that he is only doing these things for fiscal reasons.

So answer me this, are you obtuse, dense and a moron or are you just a scum bag who has no ethics, honesty or morals like Scott Walker?

Is that your long winded way of saying 'yes, I am too afraid to answer the question'????

 

[Bfgrn]

Is that your long winded way of saying 'yes, I am too afraid to answer the question'????

I DID answer your question. Walker and parrots like you can SAY 'you know how to swim, so when I drop you in the middle of the ocean and you drown, it is YOUR fault, not mine.'

You refuse to address Walker's CLEAR intent. You are unethical, dishonest and immoral.

Luke 16: 15
15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of man, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valuable in the eyes of man is detestable in God’s sight.

 

[DamnYankee]

Bfgrn, your clear intent is to be as retarded as possible.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I DID answer your question. Walker and parrots like you can SAY 'you know how to swim, so when I drop you in the middle of the ocean and you drown, it is YOUR fault, not mine.'

You refuse to address Walker's CLEAR intent. You are unethical, dishonest and immoral.
.

LMAO... that is not an answer to the question, it is a failed attempt at an analogy that in no way represents what has occurred.

the FACT is: the unions in WI still have the right to bargain for their wages and benefit increases. That IS FACT.

 

[Bfgrn]

LMAO... that is not an answer to the question, it is a failed attempt at an analogy that in no way represents what has occurred.

the FACT is: the unions in WI still have the right to bargain for their wages and benefit increases. That IS FACT.

You clearly don't want to address Walker's CLEAR intent to bust the unions. So that makes you merely a parrot who either refuses to acknowledge that intent, supports that intent or you are a MORON who is too obtuse to comprehend his CLEAR intent. Technically, the unions in WI still have the right to bargain for their wages and benefit increases, but Walker has PURPOSEFULLY placed every possible obstacle he could put in their path. He dropped them in the middle of the ocean and said, let's see if you can REALLY swim.

This is NOT a fiscal issue. Walker 'claimed' that everyone would have to share the fiscal burden. The teachers were willing to accept EVERY SINGLE fiscal cut that Walker proposed. BUT, Walker would not accept that. But you again refuse to concede that his intent is to bust the union...CLEARLY

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Technically, the unions in WI still have the right to bargain for their wages and benefit increases,.

ROFLMAO.... thank you... that is all you had to say

So now you will stop with the line of bullshit that the unions had their 'rights' taken away.

Good to know.

Side note: Yes, the unions agreed to concede at this time to the concessions Walker proposed. But as Walker stated, this is about the LONG term, not the short term. Walker knew that the unions would simply bribe politicians to give them the money back in the future if he didn't address the issue long term. So he put the power in the hands of the VOTERS. He gave the VOTERS the power to award higher benefits/salaries rather than allowing the corruption to simply restart at some point in the future.

Since you are so fond of quotes: this is from FDR:

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."

 

[Bfgrn]

ROFLMAO.... thank you... that is all you had to say

So now you will stop with the line of bullshit that the unions had their 'rights' taken away.

Good to know.

Side note: Yes, the unions agreed to concede at this time to the concessions Walker proposed. But as Walker stated, this is about the LONG term, not the short term. Walker knew that the unions would simply bribe politicians to give them the money back in the future if he didn't address the issue long term. So he put the power in the hands of the VOTERS. He gave the VOTERS the power to award higher benefits/salaries rather than allowing the corruption to simply restart at some point in the future.

Since you are so fond of quotes: this is from FDR:

HERE is the problem; there was no corruption. It is being manufactured in your attack on teachers and their union. 50+ years of collective bargaining created a landscape where public employees make LESS money than the private sector. In the case of college educated public employees (teachers), MUCH less. Teachers created WEA trust that pays back 94 cents of every taxpayer's dollar invested in health insurance. THAT is not malfeasance you freak, it is something that should be applauded and copied.

But you right wing ideologues don't concern yourself with innocence or guilt. If YOU say they are guilty, there is no need for proof. That democratic shit is way too much work when you can wield a VERY heavy handed government against people.

So much for LESS government...LOL