Why is VA trying to take down a General Lee statue to begin with?

Thing1 said:
I think JPP needs to give seminars on analogies. I've seen some of the worst ever over the past few days.

You know why those gun emplacements don't bother anyone? Because they don't celebrate any leaders of the Nazi cause, and they were part of the DEFEAT of the Nazis.

If you can't understand why some people might have a revulsion to a statue that celebrates one of those who led the fight to preserve SLAVERY, I really can't help you. As I've said, it doesn't offend me - but I can easily understand how it offends some.
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This, from someone who thinks the Nazis are analogous to the confederacy lol.
 
Darth Omar said:
This, from someone who thinks the Nazis are analogous to the confederacy lol.
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Drool some more.

Again, for the simple-minded - I was careful to confine my analogy to the concept of fighting for an evil cause.

And you never answered me: the only way to see that as hyperbolic is if you do NOT think slavery was evil. If you do not answer, I'll assume that you think slavery was fine.
 
Asked and answered. I already said I don't give a fuck, either about the icons nor the shithole called the South. Let the state and locals decide.

Return to Reading 101 or get meds. Your comprehension and/or attention span needs improvement.
 
Thing1 said:
Drool some more.

Again, for the simple-minded - I was careful to confine my analogy to the concept of fighting for an evil cause.

And you never answered me: the only way to see that as hyperbolic is if you do NOT think slavery was evil. If you do not answer, I'll assume that you think slavery was fine.
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I agree with Robert E. Lee:

... In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

— Robert E. Lee, to Mary Anna Lee, December 27, 1856

Note that Lee wasn't a slave owner and Jefferson was. His motivation for fighting against the North seemed more rooted in his devotion to his home state of Virginia. I'll leave it to those with ideological axes to grind to speculate any further.

But as Trump pointed out, where do you draw the line?

I already dispensed with your Nazi/Confederacy analogy in another post and don't feel it's necessary to do it again. Except to say it's simple-minded and ahistorical.
 
Darth Omar said:
I agree with Robert E. Lee:

... In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

— Robert E. Lee, to Mary Anna Lee, December 27, 1856

Note that Lee wasn't a slave owner and Jefferson was. His motivation for fighting against the North seemed more rooted in his devotion to his home state of Virginia. I'll leave it to those with ideological axes to grind to speculate any further.

But as Trump pointed out, where do you draw the line?

I already dispensed with your Nazi/Confederacy analogy in another post and don't feel it's necessary to do it again. Except to say it's simple-minded and ahistorical.
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It doesn't matter what his personal motivation was, or how honorable his intentions were. I'm sure there were plenty of Nazi soldiers who rationalized that they were fighting for the homeland, or for their families, or whatever.

The causes in the Civil War were as clear & well-known as the causes in WWII. People like Lee knew what the south was ultimately fighting for, and what the result would be if they won. He doesn't get brownie points or sympathy because he had his own personal feelings. He led the army that was fighting to preserve one of our nation's great evils, and that's what his statue symbolizes to a lot of people.

The end. No one should shed any tears for Lee or his statue. We're not "erasing history." We're choosing what to honor & celebrate.
 
Thing1 said:
It doesn't matter what his personal motivation was, or how honorable his intentions were. I'm sure there were plenty of Nazi soldiers who rationalized that they were fighting for the homeland, or for their families, or whatever.

The causes in the Civil War were as clear & well-known as the causes in WWII. People like Lee knew what the south was ultimately fighting for, and what the result would be if they won. He doesn't get brownie points or sympathy because he had his own personal feelings. He led the army that was fighting to preserve one of our nation's great evils, and that's what his statue symbolizes to a lot of people.

The end. No one should shed any tears for Lee or his statue. We're not "erasing history." We're choosing what to honor & celebrate.
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You going to answer the question?

Why does the slave, owner, Jefferson get a pass? How is Jefferson 'less evil' that Robert E Lee?
 
Darth - it is what each symbolize that matters. That's why I said that Lee's personal convictions were inconsequential.

He was the south's general - the man who led the attempted rebellion which was largely motivated by a desire to preserve slavery. That is now what he represents, whether that is fair or not (and I do not see at all how that is unfair). That was his most prominent role in our history.

Jefferson owned slaves, but my goodness - HIS prominent place in our history is penning the Declaration of Independence, and laying the groundwork for equal rights for everyone. That is what HE represents to people - again, regardless of personal convictions or practices.

You have to be completely tone deaf not to understand the difference there.
 
Thing1 said:
Did Jefferson fight to preserve slavery?

Yes or no is okay on that one.
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Worse.

As a framer, Jefferson had the ability to put a stop to it.

But even that's beside the point. You draw an arbitrary line between fighting the CW for slavery/ actually owning slaves.

If one is evil the other is equally evil.
 
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