warpig

Guille said:
Gotta admit you're right here. There was just a wee bit of goal post shifting here.
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Clinton did not install Yeltsin, but do you know who Yeltsin did install? Putin.

Paid American campaign advisors work all over the world. These campaign advisors come from both sides. And the reverse is also true. David Frum worked on two Bush Campaigns before he had gotten US Citizenship.
 
Walt said:
Clinton did not install Yeltsin, but do you know who Yeltsin did install? Putin.

Paid American campaign advisors work all over the world. These campaign advisors come from both sides. And the reverse is also true. David Frum worked on two Bush Campaigns before he had gotten US Citizenship.
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Clinton didn't give orders, he followed orders.
 
Guille said:
Doesn't this prove NATO is looking for a fight?
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The last thing NATO wants is a fight in the Baltic States, which is why Putin is threatening us there. He looks for a weak spot, and threatening us there. The Baltic States have a dozen obvious choke points for us.

The only reason he is attacking Ukraine and not Baltic States is that attacking the Baltic States would trigger a response from all NATO. If trump had taken us out of NATO, Putin would have been more likely to go after the Baltic States.

Think about it for a moment. The Baltic States were part of the Soviet Union, just like Ukraine. The Baltic States are actual members of the EU and NATO, not just "long term" candidates like Ukraine. The Baltic States are much further along the line that Putin wants to prevent.

And Putin does not limit himself to the Soviet States. He also claims all the Russian Empire, which would include Poland. Poland is both an EU and NATO member. Then there is Germany, never part of the Russian Empire, but Putin points out that it was occupied by the Soviet Union after WWII. We could add on Austria, all the Warsaw Pact, Finland, and on and on.

Ukraine is the thin edge of the wedge.
 
Walt said:
The last thing NATO wants is a fight in the Baltic States, which is why Putin is threatening us there. He looks for a weak spot, and threatening us there. The Baltic States have a dozen obvious choke points for us.

The only reason he is attacking Ukraine and not Baltic States is that attacking the Baltic States would trigger a response from all NATO. If trump had taken us out of NATO, Putin would have been more likely to go after the Baltic States.

Think about it for a moment. The Baltic States were part of the Soviet Union, just like Ukraine. The Baltic States are actual members of the EU and NATO, not just "long term" candidates like Ukraine. The Baltic States are much further along the line that Putin wants to prevent.

And Putin does not limit himself to the Soviet States. He also claims all the Russian Empire, which would include Poland. Poland is both an EU and NATO member. Then there is Germany, never part of the Russian Empire, but Putin points out that it was occupied by the Soviet Union after WWII. We could add on Austria, all the Warsaw Pact, Finland, and on and on.

Ukraine is the thin edge of the wedge.
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You're overthinking this Walt but I do agree about the Baltic states.
 
Guille said:
You're overthinking this Walt but I do agree about the Baltic states.
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Maybe, but I really do believe that Putin wants to control Europe. If we surrender Europe to Putin, and East Asia to China... Who is left to stand with us? We could try to setup some new alliance in Latin America, which maybe... But that seems like a long shot.

Again, maybe I am overthinking, and worrying about nothing, but it does feel like the thin edge of the wedge of the end of America. We are not even being asked to fight in Ukraine, so I do not understand why we are not all coming together to oppose Putin. It is an extreme danger that does not call for much sacrifice from us.
 
Walt said:
Maybe, but I really do believe that Putin wants to control Europe. If we surrender Europe to Putin, and East Asia to China... Who is left to stand with us? We could try to setup some new alliance in Latin America, which maybe... But that seems like a long shot.

Again, maybe I am overthinking, and worrying about nothing, but it does feel like the thin edge of the wedge of the end of America. We are not even being asked to fight in Ukraine, so I do not understand why we are not all coming together to oppose Putin. It is an extreme danger that does not call for much sacrifice from us.
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What do you mean "us" white man? I'm not inclined to send anyone to die because our self-styled elites try to make the case that they are synonymous with the flag, and Chevrolet and apple pie.
 
Walt said:
Maybe, but I really do believe that Putin wants to control Europe. If we surrender Europe to Putin, and East Asia to China... Who is left to stand with us? We could try to setup some new alliance in Latin America, which maybe... But that seems like a long shot.

Again, maybe I am overthinking, and worrying about nothing, but it does feel like the thin edge of the wedge of the end of America. We are not even being asked to fight in Ukraine, so I do not understand why we are not all coming together to oppose Putin. It is an extreme danger that does not call for much sacrifice from us.
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such hubris. were you concerned when we were on the ground during the Euromaidan?
Do you even know what I refer to when we helped foment the revolution that disenfranchised Donbas and started the Russian Separatists war?
Ya salty. we were part of that to - but never the Minsk Agreement or anything else to help keep peace in Ukraine


Then you are concerned Putin will go after Europe. A complete farce of Russiaphobic nonsense
Your sanctimonious display is only surpassed by your unbelievable ignorance
 
anatta said:
such hubris. were you concerned when we were on the ground during the Euromaidan?
Do you even know what I refer to when we helped foment the revolution that disenfranchised Donbas and started the Russian Separatists war?
Ya salty. we were part of that to - but never the Minsk Agreement or anything else to help keep peace in Ukraine


Then you are concerned Putin will go after Europe. A complete farce of Russiaphobic nonsense
Your sanctimonious display is only surpassed by your unbelievable ignorance
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Russia clearly does not have the military ability to attack NATO, the claim is indeed pure made up Bull Shit.
 
Walt said:
Maybe, but I really do believe that Putin wants to control Europe. If we surrender Europe to Putin, and East Asia to China...
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if you were concerned about the rise of China you would also have been concerned our endless sanctions year after year left Russia with nowhere to go but to allaince with China

I noticed their war games in 2018 -Vladivostok - under unified command.
I knew the "Nixon China card" was gone and instead the triangulation was going to be with the USA
odd man out.

A result of Crimean sanctions where Putin saw he was never going to be able to negotiate with Trump
He hoped to -but Hillary Clinton set up the Russian Hoax -and that made Trump even talking to Putin "Collusion" - shutting down 4 years of diplomacy that both leaders wanted

Biden comes in and doesnt take the Larvov letters at face value. while Putin sees Ukraine being more and more uber-weaponized against him

He fucked up badly by invading Ukraine and will and is pay a price
but we left him little choice by creating a hostile defacto NATO state on Russias border

And for us a more unstable Russian leadership - our nuclear foe
 
anatta said:
if you were concerned about the rise of China you would also have been concerned our endless sanctions year after year left Russia with nowhere to go but to allaince with China

I noticed their war games in 2018 -Vladivostok - under unified command.
A result of Crimean sanctions where Putin saw he was never going to be able to negotiate with Trump
He hoped to -but Hillary Clinton set up the Russian Hoax -and that made Trump even talking to Putin "Collusion" - shutting down 4 years of diplomacy that bother leaders wanted

Biden comes in and doesnt take the Larvov letters at face value. while Putin sees Ukraine being more and more uber-weaponized against him

He fucked up badly by invading Ukraine and will and is pay a price
but we left him little choice by creating a hostile defacto NATO state on Russias border

And for us a more unstable Russian leadership - our nuclear foe
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Its not just weaponizing Ukraine as a defacto NATO nation, but even more so that it was done over a long time and in stealth mode.

We gave Russia no choice but to take us as threatening Russia....because we were....that was the intent of our infant leaders...they are desperately pursuing bloodying Russia.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Its not just weaponizing Ukraine as a defacto NATO nation, but even more so that it was done over a long time and in stealth mode.

We gave Russia no choice but to take us as threatening Russia....because we were....that was the intent of our infant leaders...they are desperately pursuing bloodying Russia.
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Ukraine was the penultimate expansion of NATO.. we couldn't do it even with meddling and turning the Kyiv government into a whore for weapons
In that regard Poroshenko was as bad as Zelensky in terms of turning their country's government into western proxys
But they just followed our lead.

So called "mono-polarism" means we only care about us in any US/Russian/ west interaction
In fact we says Russian concerns are illegitimate.. Putin knew NATO was a military power he could not defeat . but he could live with Ukraine as a neutral buffer ( as long as he sawed of Crimea for Sevastopol)

we pushed and pushed for no other reason ( Black Sea shenanigans/bombers off Russia coast etc)
then we could.
Finally I think Putin saw Ukraine was NATO in all but fact and probably evenutally granted membership
Ukraine defacto NATO status took a long time, but followed naturally from NATO expansion
 
Guille said:
What do you mean "us" white man? I'm not inclined to send anyone to die because our self-styled elites try to make the case that they are synonymous with the flag, and Chevrolet and apple pie.
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We are not sending anyone to die in Ukraine.

Imagine your neighbors house is on fire. Your neighbor says he would like to take your hose, and a bit of your water, and try to save his family. You respond, "I am not willing to send anyone into a burning house"?

He is not asking you to run into a burning house. He is going to run in for his own reasons. He is just asking for a hose, and some water out of your faucet. You might not get the hose back, and you definitely will not get the water back, but it is a tiny price to pay.

And it might just save your house from burning down too. I do not care if you are Black or white, having your house burn down sucks.
 
anatta said:
it keeps them drunk on power. Next up is the Baltics!! :eek2:
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It is also a diversion from a collapsing America, and the massive pain coming from these suicidal sanctions, which will further stress America. All of the oxygen used to spread the lie that Russia might attack for instance Poland is not being used to talk about the gathering global famine, or the coming Recession/Depression...or that China is coming to kick our ass.
 
anatta said:
Ukraine was the penultimate expansion of NATO.. we couldn't do it even with meddling and turning the Kyiv government into a whore for weapons
In that regard Poroshenko was as bad as Zelensky in terms of turning their country's government into western proxys
But they just followed our lead.

So called "mono-polarism" means we only care about us in any US/Russian/ west interaction
In fact we says Russian concerns are illegitimate.. Putin knew NATO was a military power he could not defeat . but he could live with Ukraine as a neutral buffer ( as long as he sawed of Crimea for Sevastopol)

we pushed and pushed for no other reason ( Black Sea shenanigans/bombers off Russia coast etc)
then we could.
Finally I think Putin saw Ukraine was NATO in all but fact and probably evenutally granted membership
Ukraine defacto NATO status took a long time, but followed naturally from NATO expansion
Click to expand...

I think you should take more seriously that we were not being honest with what we were doing in Ukraine, and all of the possible reasons for us doing that are bad for Russia.

And also it proved that we have no honor.
 
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