Venezuela Referendum: Chavez Wins Vote To End Term Limits

[blackascoal]

All of that is true, but the reality is they'll still drive up to the beach, remove the car doors, create a raft and paddle their way to Florida.

Why do they do that if it is the beneficent blissful heaven you describe?

(Of course the doctors would kill for some of our equipment).

If I was going to become a doctor I would love to study in Cuba. But there is a reason people are that desperate to get out, it isn't because living there is pleasant.

The reality is that SOME will try to float away to the land of milk and honey, but there are MILLIONS of Cubans and only a relatively few attempt to float to OZ.

AND, please post where I said Cuba is beneficial bliss .. if you can't do so see if you can debate what I've actually said. What I've actually said was Cubans are better off under Castro than they were under Batista. It's much more difficult to debate that truth than it is to debate something that wasn't said.

Under Batista Cuba was profitable for American business and pleasureable for American businessmen, but it was a haven for the mafia and thugs like Meyer Lansky. Most Cubans were slaves on sugar plantations and Cuban women were mere toys to be degraded and discarded. He orchestrated a coup that ousted the elected leader, ruled with an iron fist, and murdered his opposition.

No screaming from America then about "democracy" because like Saddam, Batista was our puppet. AND, like our puppet in Iran, the Shah, who came to power the same way, Batista had a brutal police force that murdered and tortured its way across the country. Non-white Cubans bore the brunt of his horrors.

Castro is a hero to the Cuban people and he ended not only the brutal horror of Batista, he also ended his racist control of the country.

There is a distinct characteristic about the exile white Cuban population in Florida, particularly around Miami .. they are racist to the bone. They indeed may be even more racist than the knuckledraggers of the American south. They may be the most racist people ever invented. Many will openly tell you that's why they came to the US. They have no tolerance for Castro's more open society.

If you're interested in a better understanding of this, try this ..
http://books.google.com/books?id=P1...X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA161,M1

And so you don't claim I said Cuba is a racial utopia, that's not what I said. It is better than it was, but not utopia .. the same as it is here.

 

[Damocles]

The reality is that SOME will try to float away to the land of milk and honey, but there are MILLIONS of Cubans and only a relatively few attempt to float to OZ.

AND, please post where I said Cuba is beneficial bliss .. if you can't do so see if you can debate what I've actually said. What I've actually said was Cubans are better off under Castro than they were under Batista. It's much more difficult to debate that truth than it is to debate something that wasn't said.

Under Batista Cuba was profitable for American business and pleasureable for American businessmen, but it was a haven for the mafia and thugs like Meyer Lansky. Most Cubans were slaves on sugar plantations and Cuban women were mere toys to be degraded and discarded. He orchestrated a coup that ousted the elected leader, ruled with an iron fist, and murdered his opposition.

No screaming from America then about "democracy" because like Saddam, Batista was our puppet. AND, like our puppet in Iran, the Shah, who came to power the same way, Batista had a brutal police force that murdered and tortured its way across the country. Non-white Cubans bore the brunt of his horrors.

Castro is a hero to the Cuban people and he ended not only the brutal horror of Batista, he also ended his racist control of the country.

There is a distinct characteristic about the exile white Cuban population in Florida, particularly around Miami .. they are racist to the bone. They indeed may be even more racist than the knuckledraggers of the American south. They may be the most racist people ever invented. Many will openly tell you that's why they came to the US. They have no tolerance for Castro's more open society.

If you're interested in a better understanding of this, try this ..
http://books.google.com/books?id=P1...X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA161,M1

And so you don't claim I said Cuba is a racial utopia, that's not what I said. It is better than it was, but not utopia .. the same as it is here.

That's quite a low bar you set for them, BAC, Better than Bautista can be achieved by any form of government anywhere.

I think you mistake my pointing out the reality that the life there really sucks even if it is "better than Bautista" as some sort of defense of America.

The reality is socialism has not made that place even pleasant enough to keep people from trying desperately to get out. Nobody rides car doors to Cuba, even if they are going there for medical care.

 

[blackascoal]

this is beyond comical,
I have seen 1 story of anyone rafting back to Cuba.
I have seen many Cubans and Mexicans sending millions back to their country.
Wow BAC you'd be a great leaft politician but take a wiff of the real world son.
They drive 40yr old american cars in Cuba and Mexico. I bet you don't.

You probably don't drive what I drive, what does that say about you?

Nothing is what it says.

Like most pure capitalists, you seem to measure everything by its monetary value. Good luck with that.

Why do the relatively few Cubans leave? .. how about the Cuban Adjustment Act. You are aware of the act, aren't you?

This privileged law affords the Cuban illegal immigrant the opportunity, to work legally, to get government welfare and to recieve unemployment benefits ... things that the average immigrant by no means is entitled to.

Is it a mystery to you why the few leave?

If there was water seperating the US and Mexico, you don't think there would be mexicans on make-shift rafts?

 

[blackascoal]

That's quite a low bar you set for them, BAC, Better than Bautista can be achieved by any form of government anywhere.

I think you mistake my pointing out the reality that the life there really sucks even if it is "better than Bautista" as some sort of defense of America.

The reality is socialism has not made that place even pleasant enough to keep people from trying desperately to get out. Nobody rides car doors to Cuba, even if they are going there for medical care.

I don't set any bars for the Cuban people sir. They set them for themselves and if they were as discontent as you seem to believe, they'd overthrow Castro just as they did Batista .. in fact, the CIA would help them do it .. but that's been tried before and it failed. It failed because they aren't as miserable as you believe.

What bars do you set for Americans. We are simply better off .. perhaps .. than we were. We have not arrived at utopia.

Additionally, see my above post and as yourself if American laws that grant Cuban exiles privileges not granted to other immigrants don't play a role in encouraging some to leave. Then ask yourself why cuban exiles are granted these rights.

In a great many ways, cubans are better off than mexicans .. and they have a democracy. If water seperated the US and Mexico, would there be mexicans on car doors?

 

[Topspin]

Oh wait evil corp america takes better care of the Cuban refugees. LOFL

 

[Topspin]

you should still run, we need politicians who look out for the little guy like you do. Your love of third world socialist is cute.

 

[blackascoal]

Oh wait evil corp america takes better care of the Cuban refugees. LOFL

Hopefully you are at least aware of how mindlessly stupid your comment truly is.

The government takes care of cuban exiles and I gave you the act that declares that truth. Instead of researching the act, you come back with stupid.

 

[blackascoal]

you should still run, we need politicians who look out for the little guy like you do. Your love of third world socialist is cute.

No thank you brother.

I've found that I can be more effective on the outside.

Now they come to me.

 

[Damocles]

I don't set any bars for the Cuban people sir. They set them for themselves and if they were as discontent as you seem to believe, they'd overthrow Castro just as they did Batista .. in fact, the CIA would help them do it .. but that's been tried before and it failed. It failed because they aren't as miserable as you believe.

What bars do you set for Americans. We are simply better off .. perhaps .. than we were. We have not arrived at utopia.

Additionally, see my above post and as yourself if American laws that grant Cuban exiles privileges not granted to other immigrants don't play a role in encouraging some to leave. Then ask yourself why cuban exiles are granted these rights.

In a great many ways, cubans are better off than mexicans .. and they have a democracy. If water seperated the US and Mexico, would there be mexicans on car doors?

Again, the measure you set for Cuba on how "miserable" they are "not" is clearly quite a low one.

I've yet to see a place with such a measure of socialism that doesn't have people desperately escaping or so trapped that they cannot like in N. Korea.

I point out that you are correct, their medical schools are good, but that as the measure of how great it is there is sullied by the very real desperate actions people will take to get out of there.

Yeah, corruption in any form of government will get people to leave, even in Democracy.

I'm sorry to wreck the beautiful place you were describing (I could almost hear the angel track in the background) with the very real and lasting impression I will always have of exactly how desperate people are to get out of there. It sounds so much like the stories of those trying to get out of East Germany...

Do I think that this could be helped a bit with the US trading with them? Yes, I do. As I said, if I were studying medicine that is where I'd want to go. Then I'd want to come here to practice because of the equipment. Does this change that I understand that it is quite clearly a miserable place to live? No.

 

[blackascoal]

Again, the measure you set for Cuba on how "miserable" they are "not" is clearly quite a low one.

I've yet to see a place with such a measure of socialism that doesn't have people desperately escaping or so trapped that they cannot like in N. Korea.

I point out that you are correct, their medical schools are good, but that as the measure of how great it is there is sullied by the very real desperate actions people will take to get out of there.

Yeah, corruption in any form of government will get people to leave, even in Democracy.

I'm sorry to wreck the beautiful place you were describing (I could almost hear the angel track in the background) with the very real and lasting impression I will always have of exactly how desperate people are to get out of there. It sounds so much like the stories of those trying to get out of East Germany...

Do I think that this could be helped a bit with the US trading with them? Yes, I do. As I said, if I were studying medicine that is where I'd want to go. Then I'd want to come here to practice because of the equipment. Does this change that I understand that it is quite clearly a miserable place to live? No.

FAR more mexicans float, crawl, die in the desert and in the back of unventilated trucks trying to get here than cubans float here .. and cubans are enticed by the US government to float here, yet cubans are better off than mexicans..

Mexico is a democracy.

People from democracies immigrate here everyday.

Real or imagined, America is perceived as the land where streets are paved with gold.

In your need to paint Cuba as a miserable place you continue to ignore the facts that

a. Cubans are enticed to float here by the US government.
b. Relatively few cubans attempt to immigrate here .. even after Castro opened the door for them to leave.
c. Cubans have proven themselves fully capable of overthrowing any regime that don't think in their best interest and Castro has survived 11 US presidents.

Your only argument is to continue to mischaracterize what I've said .. but I understand why.

 

[Damocles]

FAR more mexicans float, crawl, die in the desert and in the back of unventilated trucks trying to get here than cubans float here .. and cubans are enticed by the US government to float here, yet cubans are better off than mexicans..

Mexico is a democracy.

People from democracies immigrate here everyday.

Real or imagined, America is perceived as the land where streets are paved with gold.

In your need to paint Cuba as a miserable place you continue to ignore the facts that

a. Cubans are enticed to float here by the US government.
b. Relatively few cubans attempt to immigrate here .. even after Castro opened the door for them to leave.
c. Cubans have proven themselves fully capable of overthrowing any regime that don't think in their best interest and Castro has survived 11 US presidents.

Your only argument is to continue to mischaracterize what I've said .. but I understand why.

Again, the natural barrier is far more difficult to overcome from Cuba, however escaping corruption will always be a large incentive even for people in corrupt democracies.

There is a difference between immigration from a Democratic nation and driving your car to the shore, removing the doors, tying them together and attempting to set sail, and there is an exchange in most cases where people from here will move to other Democracies. (Even to Mexico, shocking as it may seem.) The difference is in the desperation that one must have to trust their car door not to sink.

You are being dishonest with yourself if you cannot see that difference, and even further if you think the incentive of political asylum is magical enough to get me to launch into the sea on something that isn't even designed to float.

While Mexicans work hard to escape the corruption of their government (of course in your book it's great there because they aren't overthrowing the government with violent revolution they must be "happier than you think.")

Pretending that the actions that a Cuban takes to get here are not a measure of the misery that exists there is just silly nonsense. You're not telling stories to children here. People do not take such desperate actions without powerful incentive.

 

[Canceled2]

Again, the measure you set for Cuba on how "miserable" they are "not" is clearly quite a low one.

I've yet to see a place with such a measure of socialism that doesn't have people desperately escaping or so trapped that they cannot like in N. Korea.

I point out that you are correct, their medical schools are good, but that as the measure of how great it is there is sullied by the very real desperate actions people will take to get out of there.

Yeah, corruption in any form of government will get people to leave, even in Democracy.

I'm sorry to wreck the beautiful place you were describing (I could almost hear the angel track in the background) with the very real and lasting impression I will always have of exactly how desperate people are to get out of there. It sounds so much like the stories of those trying to get out of East Germany...

Do I think that this could be helped a bit with the US trading with them? Yes, I do. As I said, if I were studying medicine that is where I'd want to go. Then I'd want to come here to practice because of the equipment. Does this change that I understand that it is quite clearly a miserable place to live? No.

You might appreciate this link about medicine in Cuba.


Or this one about medicine in Mexico.

 

[blackascoal]

Again, the natural barrier is far more difficult to overcome from Cuba, however escaping corruption will always be a large incentive even for people in corrupt democracies.

There is a difference between immigration from a Democratic nation and driving your car to the shore, removing the doors, tying them together and attempting to set sail, and there is an exchange in most cases where people from here will move to other Democracies. (Even to Mexico, shocking as it may seem.) The difference is in the desperation that one must have to trust their car door not to sink.

You are being dishonest with yourself if you cannot see that difference, and even further if you think the incentive of political asylum is magical enough to get me to launch into the sea on something that isn't even designed to float.

While Mexicans work hard to escape the corruption of their government (of course in your book it's great there because they aren't overthrowing the government with violent revolution they must be "happier than you think.")

Pretending that the actions that a Cuban takes to get here are not a measure of the misery that exists there is just silly nonsense. You're not telling stories to children here. People do not take such desperate actions without powerful incentive.

It has the appearance of talking to children as you've once again ignored everything I've said.

I'm cool with you believing anything you choose about Cuba and socialism.

 

[Damocles]

It has the appearance of talking to children as you've once again ignored everything I've said.

I'm cool with you believing anything you choose about Cuba and socialism.

Except I didn't ignore any of it, I answered it with a different opinion. While we quite clearly disagree it isn't because I am "ignorant" of socialism it is because you wear socialist colored lenses when looking at places like Cuba. The very real misery of the people is not offset with their medicine nor should you suggest my measure of misery should solely be, "Well, they aren't taking up arms they don't have to attack the people with the army so it must be better than you think."

It isn't better than what I think. There is very real misery there.

 

[Damocles]

You might appreciate this link about medicine in Cuba.


Or this one about medicine in Mexico.

The links are educational, but nothing that I haven't heard before.

First I'll attempt to get somebody to take of their socialist colored glasses, seek deep in their soul and then to admit people don't sail across the ocean on pieces of car because they are "enticed" to by the amazing benefits of political asylum if they hit the sand before the Coast Guard finds them. Then we can get into the difference of people who are "more equal than others" in that particular system. It doesn't matter if it is miserable in another place, people do that because there is very real misery there.

Then when they try to say it is the same as immigrating from France or something it is preposterous.

Yes, there are some Democracies with misery, but I have yet to find one place with this level of "socialism" that isn't miserable.

Standing there saying, "See? Some people in Democracies are miserable too!" doesn't change the level of desperation it takes to do what I have seen people do to get here from such a miserable place.

Once we get them to realize the very real misery then we can start taking measure of why when they live in medicinal heaven they might not see some of the benefit personally and can still be very miserable.

 

[KingCondanomation]

The reality is that SOME will try to float away to the land of milk and honey, but there are MILLIONS of Cubans and only a relatively few attempt to float to OZ.

Well "some" because it's illegal to leave and because the voyage can be deadly.
Were all Cubans free to leave and had an easy way to do it like Mexicans, then that country would see millions leave.

You are a good supporter of civil liberties BAC, Cuba restricts the 2 biggest in freedom of speech and freedom of mobility, how can you possibly have any praise for them?
And yes I know America is not perfect, but all are free to leave America and people criticize the president and ruling party all the time, you couldn't do either legally in Cuba.

 

[blackascoal]

Except I didn't ignore any of it, I answered it with a different opinion. While we quite clearly disagree it isn't because I am "ignorant" of socialism it is because you wear socialist colored lenses when looking at places like Cuba. The very real misery of the people is not offset with their medicine nor should you suggest my measure of misery should solely be, "Well, they aren't taking up arms they don't have to attack the people with the army so it must be better than you think."

It isn't better than what I think. There is very real misery there.

There is misery everywhere, including in the US and in whatever state you live in.

My point is and has always been that Cuba is not the hellhole you and others make it out to be. Never said some people were not unhappy, but what kind of measure is that?

You want to play down Cuba's successes to fit your ideology, but the TRUTH is that Cubans are much better off than they were, better off than the democracy of Mexico, better off than most carribean nations, better off than many in oil-producing nations.

Had I not imposed the truth of Cuba's healthcare system and improvements in the lives of Venezuelans, this thread would have been nothing but a bash-fest with unintelligent comments about socialism.

You'd rather use the US inspired "escape" of a few to paint a picture of Cuba that belies the fact that Cubans are quite capable of determing who should lead them for themselves.

By the way, is Sweden and equally "miserable" place? It's socialist.

 

[blackascoal]

Well "some" because it's illegal to leave and because the voyage can be deadly.
Were all Cubans free to leave and had an easy way to do it like Mexicans, then that country would see millions leave.

You are a good supporter of civil liberties BAC, Cuba restricts the 2 biggest in freedom of speech and freedom of mobility, how can you possibly have any praise for them?
And yes I know America is not perfect, but all are free to leave America and people criticize the president and ruling party all the time, you couldn't do either legally in Cuba.

I've stated several times that Castro is paranoid .. though he has good reason to be paranoid. His paranoia has led to suppression of civil liberties and freedom, which I do not condone. Nor do I believe that everything in Cuba is perfect or that more democracy isn't in order.

IN 1980, Castro opened the door for cubans to leave .. 125,000 left, not millions. Of course, Castro threw in about 10,000 criminals who ended up in America.

Clinton instituted his wet foot/dry foot policy and subsequently set a minimum of allowing 20,000 cubans to immigrate each year through the Immigtation and Naturalization Act .. but it couldn't meet the minimum.

The simple fact is that cubans are enticed to leave Cuba by the US government for very obviuos reasons. Many who arrive at our shores believe, as they have been told, that a job and home would be waiting for them.

There is much yet to be done in Cuba, but how does that differ from any nation on the planet, including this one which has the highest rate of prisoners in human history and where non-white citizens are still regularly murdered by police.

 

[KingCondanomation]

I'd also add that many Cubans instead of taking the Florida route where they can easily get caught by the coast guard, many more are instead going through Mexico. 11000 last year alone:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7679109.stm

They must be pretty desperate to chance avoiding 2 countries trying to stop them along with paying tens of thousands just to be smuggled in.

 

[Damocles]

I'd also add that many Cubans instead of taking the Florida route where they can easily get caught by the coast guard, many more are instead going through Mexico. 11000 last year alone:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7679109.stm

They must be pretty desperate to chance avoiding 2 countries trying to stop them along with paying tens of thousands just to be smuggled in.

Hey don't point out things that are true, because we can only look at the fabulous care foreigners get in Cuba in their health care system (because they pay for it they get special treatment). It should be what we measure all things by, Cuba's health care system. Pay no attention to the Castro behind the curtain.