Venezuela Referendum: Chavez Wins Vote To End Term Limits

[blackascoal]

I'd also add that many Cubans instead of taking the Florida route where they can easily get caught by the coast guard, many more are instead going through Mexico. 11000 last year alone:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7679109.stm

They must be pretty desperate to chance avoiding 2 countries trying to stop them along with paying tens of thousands just to be smuggled in.

How many mexicans use desperate means to get into the US?

Mexico is a democracy.

Additionally, Castro remains highly popular not only in Cuba, but throughout Latin America.

When Mexico City recalled its ambassador to Havana in 2004, 200,000Mexicans marched in support of Castro.

Castro not only implemented free healthcare, he also implemented free education.

It is amazing to me listening to Americans, in the midst of a total collapse of our system, continue to point fingers at a small island nation that would be much better off, if not BOOMING, without US sanctions .. which would also mean far less people trying to float away.

California, which has more resources than Cuba, is on the verge of disaster.

Maybe socialism did that.

 

[blackascoal]

Hey don't point out things that are true, because we can only look at the fabulous care foreigners get in Cuba in their health care system (because they pay for it they get special treatment). It should be what we measure all things by, Cuba's health care system. Pay no attention to the Castro behind the curtain.

Yet you claim I'm not talking to children.

 

[Damocles]

There is much yet to be done in Cuba, but how does that differ from any nation on the planet, including this one which has the highest rate of prisoners in human history and where non-white citizens are still regularly murdered by police.

You and I agree on the US' prison industry at least. The few that are desperate enough to take the Florida route rather than the Mexico route to the US are not the sole factor. Have you ever spent time with any of them to hear why they leave? I've yet to hear one that was "enticed" by the magic house and job, but I certainly have met many who will tell you about very real tragedies that you dismiss as "paranoia".

I know one thing. I'd rather live here than there, even with the infant mortality rates (measured differently and skewed therefore) being higher here. Nowadays those few who have US dollars sent to them by family who reach here get to spend them and buy things we all take for granted in the US at a special market opened by their government. Those who do not, have no access at all to things we not only take for granted, but often would be entirely lost without.

I wish our government would take a different stance with Cuba. Open trade up, stop punishing the Cubans for the actions of their Government. Their type of socialism is not something you want, as far as I know. It certainly isn't the "Democratic Socialism" that you espouse and it doesn't build equity among those who live there. The party elites are "more equal" (Animal Farm reference) than the masses.

 

[blackascoal]

You and I agree on the US' prison industry at least. The few that are desperate enough to take the Florida route rather than the Mexico route to the US are not the sole factor. Have you ever spent time with any of them to hear why they leave? I've yet to hear one that was "enticed" by the magic house and job, but I certainly have met many who will tell you about very real tragedies that you dismiss as "paranoia".

I know one thing. I'd rather live here than there, even with the infant mortality rates (measured differently and skewed therefore) being higher here. Nowadays those few who have US dollars sent to them by family who reach here get to spend them and buy things we all take for granted in the US at a special market opened by their government. Those who do not, have no access at all to things we not only take for granted, but often would be entirely lost without.

I wish our government would take a different stance with Cuba. Open trade up, stop punishing the Cubans for the actions of their Government. Their type of socialism is not something you want, as far as I know. It certainly isn't the "Democratic Socialism" that you espouse and it doesn't build equity among those who live there. The party elites are "more equal" (Animal Farm reference) than the masses.

In fact, I have met with more than just a few, several times in an official capacity. This is where some of my perspectives on Cuba come from.

NOBODY, including me is saying Cuba is heaven, but surely you recognize the vested interest in portraying Cuba in a negative light. But it isn't just Cuba, Venezuela is painted with the same false brush.

I would rather live here as well .. I'm vested here, my family is here .. but I wouldn't mind a vacation to Cuba, and I find average Cubans to be interesting people .. beyond the right-wing racists in Miami.

You are correct, the model of socialism in Cuba is not the socialism I believe in, nor for that matter, is the model in Venezuela .. but would you want the model of democracy practiced in Iraq or Afghanistan or even France?

Political systems are often unique to specific countries and often the problems faced by countries are not specifically tied to their political ideology .. like in Venezuela and like right here in the US.

My only effort in this thread is to shed some light on the positives about Cuba amd Venezuela that does conform to the socialism I believe in, not to deny that problems in both places do not exist.

Our government can't take a different approach to Cuba or anywhere else as long as half-truths and misconceptions continue to be accepted as truth.

 

[Damocles]

My point in this thread is to state that the brush isn't always "false". You began this thread with how awesome it was to be in Cuba because their doctors are well-trained.

he did the same thing in Cuba and dramatically improved the lives of average Cubans. They have some of the best doctors in the world and their infant mortality and literacy rates are better than ours. Wasn't even close before Castro came to power.

There is nothing in that statement that recognized any need for reform in Cuba. As I said I could almost hear the Angel Track of the CD in your head playing as you renounced the "falsehood"... one that wasn't "false" just contrary to how you want people to think of Cuba.

So far I've been consistent. Not only do they need to "fix a few things", but that vaunted health care is largely for those who pay in cash (the tourists who come solely for the well-trained doctors do in fact pay for their care) and the elite, the treatment for the regular man is not nearly as positive an experience. Nothing at all in your original statement of praise for Cuba and it's awesome (angels singing) health care made anybody even think once that there might be reasons that people might think they don't want to live there.

There really is a reason that so many otherwise law abiding people would take desperate measures to get somewhere else (not always the US) than where they live and it isn't the awesome pleasantness brought on by the very few things they do "well" by your estimation. They are sick and tired of being left out of access to the rest of the world and weary of the government restrictions, fearful, you say because their leader is "paranoid" but in reality it is because of very real tragedies that will come down on them when they act in a way that isn't sanctioned.

I'd prefer to live in a place with a prison industry than a place where the prison is only slightly less restrictive than my regular life (yes an exaggeration but not by much), and be that as it may so would many Cubans. I like being able to go downtown without seeing huge head shots of our leaders proclaiming how great they are.

Do I think I have it better than most Cubans? Heck, yes. Do I think we should work towards a more open trade? You bet I do. But we shouldn't do it by denying what we see and hear from the people we know and love. (At least what I see and hear from the people I know and love).

 

[Cancel7]

In fact, I have met with more than just a few, several times in an official capacity. This is where some of my perspectives on Cuba come from.

NOBODY, including me is saying Cuba is heaven, but surely you recognize the vested interest in portraying Cuba in a negative light. But it isn't just Cuba, Venezuela is painted with the same false brush.

I would rather live here as well .. I'm vested here, my family is here .. but I wouldn't mind a vacation to Cuba, and I find average Cubans to be interesting people .. beyond the right-wing racists in Miami.

You are correct, the model of socialism in Cuba is not the socialism I believe in, nor for that matter, is the model in Venezuela .. but would you want the model of democracy practiced in Iraq or Afghanistan or even France?

Political systems are often unique to specific countries and often the problems faced by countries are not specifically tied to their political ideology .. like in Venezuela and like right here in the US.

My only effort in this thread is to shed some light on the positives about Cuba amd Venezuela that does conform to the socialism I believe in, not to deny that problems in both places do not exist.

Our government can't take a different approach to Cuba or anywhere else as long as half-truths and misconceptions continue to be accepted as truth.

A non-profit group I belong to received a very large grant (I wrote the grant), and one of the things we had planned for it are several trips that a global group we work with the leader of, are going on. One of them is to Venezuela, and I really want to go. It'd be paid for by the grant, and it's a great opportunity. Some of my friends and family tell me I'm crazy, but I don't care. I've never been to Cuba, but I'd go there too.

 

[Epicurus]

A non-profit group I belong to received a very large grant (I wrote the grant), and one of the things we had planned for it are several trips that a global group we work with the leader of, are going on. One of them is to Venezuela, and I really want to go. It'd be paid for by the grant, and it's a great opportunity. Some of my friends and family tell me I'm crazy, but I don't care. I've never been to Cuba, but I'd go there too.

Gonna go join the Glorious Revolution, Darla?

 

[Cancel7]

Gonna go join the Glorious Revolution, Darla?

LOL. Nah, it's a people to people thing. (you stay in a decent hotel though) I think it's going to be an incredible experience. Just having been awarded the grant shocked the shit out of us. We didn't think we'd get it. It's going to be great.

 

[Epicurus]

That is cool, and congratulations on getting the grant. I understand it's pretty competitive for a lot of them.

 

[Cancel7]

That is cool, and congratulations on getting the grant. I understand it's pretty competitive for a lot of them.

Very. It's not a government grant, it's a private one. A very well-funded liberal organization gives them out here. I guess right wing organizations give out grants to go to Venezuela if you are going to kill people? But we don't have to do anything like that. lol

 

[Minister of Truth]

Very. It's not a government grant, it's a private one. A very well-funded liberal organization gives them out here. I guess right wing organizations give out grants to go to Venezuela if you are going to kill people? But we don't have to do anything like that. lol

The conservative groups usually go to Central America on missions and such, building houses, giving aid and medical attention, etc.

Anyway, the main point I wanted to make was:

FIDDLE CASTRO IS EVIL

 

[Epicurus]

Very. It's not a government grant, it's a private one. A very well-funded liberal organization gives them out here. I guess right wing organizations give out grants to go to Venezuela if you are going to kill people? But we don't have to do anything like that. lol

You have to be willing to assassinate local union leaders, but if you are comfortable with that it can actually be a rather pleasant vacation.

 

[Cancel7]

You have to be willing to assassinate local union leaders, but if you are comfortable with that it can actually be a rather pleasant vacation.

You know what's funny, is that I totally believe that.

 

[Epicurus]

You know what's funny, is that I totally believe that.

Believe what?

That such vacations are offered by right-wing groups or that I would be comfortable taking them?

 

[Epicurus]

This is what inspired my comment. It's a locally based coal corporation that is constantly being accused of killing union leaders and funding death squads in South America. I lived on the same street with a state senator who was completely in their pocket. He used to drive around in this massive, pimped out Escalade that Drummond bought for him.

http://www.locustfork.net/blog/drummond_coal/index.html

 

[Cancel7]

Believe what?

That such vacations are offered by right-wing groups or that I would be comfortable taking them?

Noo, not you, the other thing. Generally speaking I mean.

 

[Cancel7]

This is what inspired my comment. It's a locally based coal corporation that is constantly being accused of killing union leaders and funding death squads in South America. I lived on the same street with a state senator who was completely in their pocket. He used to drive around in this massive, pimped out Escalade that Drummond bought for him.

http://www.locustfork.net/blog/drummond_coal/index.html

Yeah, that is what I mean. Stuff like that.

 

[Epicurus]

This company is truly unbelievable. In the last five years they have faced lawsuits in the US, the Netherlands, and Columbia for their involvement in these union deaths.

They have also been sued for telling the DEA that one of their competitors was laundering money in Columbia, resulting in his arrest.

Also, they have hired the AUC paramilitaries to provide protection for some of their facilities in Columbia.

Jesus Christ.

 

[Canceled2]

The links are educational, but nothing that I haven't heard before.

First I'll attempt to get somebody to take of their socialist colored glasses, seek deep in their soul and then to admit people don't sail across the ocean on pieces of car because they are "enticed" to by the amazing benefits of political asylum if they hit the sand before the Coast Guard finds them. Then we can get into the difference of people who are "more equal than others" in that particular system. It doesn't matter if it is miserable in another place, people do that because there is very real misery there.

Then when they try to say it is the same as immigrating from France or something it is preposterous.

Yes, there are some Democracies with misery, but I have yet to find one place with this level of "socialism" that isn't miserable.

Standing there saying, "See? Some people in Democracies are miserable too!" doesn't change the level of desperation it takes to do what I have seen people do to get here from such a miserable place.

Once we get them to realize the very real misery then we can start taking measure of why when they live in medicinal heaven they might not see some of the benefit personally and can still be very miserable.

Another important point in seeing differences of why Mexicans come here and why Cubans do; For Mexican's it is purely economic i.e. opportunity to make some real money, much of which is sent back to family in Mexico. For Cuban's it is both economics and political. They, unlike Mexican's, are not inclined to either send money back or ever go back to their homeland under Castro.

As the articles highlighted the so called medical advantages in Cuba have been highly over-rated and exagerated.

 

[Famov]

Venezuela Referendum: Chavez Wins Vote To End Term Limits

CARACAS, Venezuela — President Hugo Chavez won a referendum to eliminate term limits Sunday and vowed to remain in power for at least another decade to complete his socialist revolution. Opponents accepted defeat but said Chavez is becoming a dictator.

Fireworks exploded in the sky and caravans of supporters celebrated in the streets, waving red flags and honking horns. Thousands of people gathered outside Miraflores Palace, where the former paratroop commander appeared on a balcony to sing the national anthem and address the crowd.

"Those who voted 'yes' today voted for socialism, for revolution," Chavez said. He called the victory _ which allows all public officials to run for re-election indefinitely _ a mandate to speed his transformation of Venezuela into a socialist state.

"Today we opened wide the gates of the future," he said. "In 2012 there will be presidential elections, and unless God decides otherwise, unless the people decide otherwise, this soldier is already a candidate."

With 94 percent of the vote counted, 54 percent had voted for the constitutional amendment, National Electoral Council chief Tibisay Lucena said. Forty-six percent had voted against it, a trend she called irreversible. She said turnout was 67 percent.

NOTE: Cutting to the chase .. here's what right-wing Americans can't stand ..

Voters on both sides said the referendum was crucial to the future of Venezuela, a deeply polarized country where Chavez has spent a tumultuous decade in power channeling tremendous oil wealth into combating gaping social inequality.

Chavez supporters say their president has given poor Venezuelans cheap food, free education and quality health care, and empowered them with a discourse of class struggle after decades of U.S.-backed governments that favored the rich.

more at link --
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/15/venezuela-referendum-vote_n_167053.html

With capitalism only the rich matter .. and only they get bailed out from the consequences of their own greed.

67% turnout .. and oh yeah ..elections in Venezuela have far more integrity than election in the US.

That you would post this alarming turn of events in Venezuela as some sort of victory for the left shows just how far gone you really are.

No term limits? That's good how? Because people want it? Individual rights should be independent of popular opinion. The Democratic process, created so as to prevent tyrants from setting up shop and getting comfortable, is being slowly being made irrelevant with Chavez's determination to never leave office.

And you speak of integrity!

With Capitalism only the individual matters. With Socialism only Hugo Chavez matters. This turn of events is a victory for no one.