US drug war has met none of its goals

[Damocles]

Says another mind blinded by the perverted morality of asceticism. At least buddhists seem to be a little less hypocritical, but my knowledge of eastern religions is not as good as my knowledge of the western ones.

If you believe drug use is the problem, then WoD might be the best solution. It is certainly not the best solution for the problem of drug abuse.

You guys should go join the Scientologists. Maybe you can get on Oprah, jump around on a couch and spew nonsense about the evils of drugs.

Drug use isn't the problem. The government believing that it can tell you to minutiae "what is good for you" and use the force of law to make you behave their way is the problem. Even people making bad decisions with alcohol are less inclined to rob you to get their next fix. Society making these kinds of decisions for people create the problems inherent in the "drug war".

My point is, prohibition never works. They go to prison where they can still use drugs while they are learning to more effectively victimize society so they can obtain still more drugs. It's just a large example of rather poor circular reasoning and it should be a very good lesson in "unintended consequences".

I think you read "between the lines" rather poorly and just attempted to "give" me an opinion. I don't like it when Onceler and Cypress do it, why would I like it when you do; and what makes you think you'd be right?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You can, however solve the problem of Gorilla poop in the living room by moving the Gorilla out in the open, maybe even to a zoo.

When we worked to continue "prohibition" gangs roamed the streets shooting each other up in drivebys. Today, instead of learning from something in our past we simply repeat history and believe that throwing yet more money at it is going to make everything just keen, we'll do it the "right way" this time....

Prohibition hasn't worked, it didn't work last time, it isn't working this time. It's ignorant to even try.

But we're not acknowledging the gorilla Damo! That's the problem! We want to pretend it's normal and natural for the gorilla to be in the room, and that we should just learn to accept that. We have one group who wants to ban gorilla poop, and another who wants us to live with the poop, enjoy it, embrace it! Neither side is acknowledging the real problem here!

Prohibition doesn't work, you are correct... but neither does legalization and ignoring the consequences! One is just as ineffective as the other in dealing with THE PROBLEM! Until we can get passed that, and start to have a real fundamental conversation about what causes drug and alcohol abuse and how we can avoid falling into that trap to begin with, we can't even start to make a dent in the drug abuse problem, and we are just chasing a symptom like a bunch of keystone cops!

 

[Timshel]

Damo, drug use is likely to go up some with an end to the war on drugs. I would argue it will be a small increase and that drug abuse will decline. But there is likely to be an increase in users. If your problem is use, then logically, the drug war is the solution.

There is nothing wrong with drug use. There is nothing wrong with you having a beer. It is abuse that is the problem.

 

[Damocles]

Damo, drug use is likely to go up some with an end to the war on drugs. I would argue it will be a small increase and that drug abuse will decline. But there is likely to be an increase in users. If your problem is use, then logically, the drug war is the solution.

There is nothing wrong with drug use. There is nothing wrong with you having a beer. It is abuse that is the problem.

Again, IMO, drug use isn't the problem. What part of that sentence leaves you in a quandary?

We create the problem through using force (government) in order to make people act the way "we" (society) think they should.

I think I'm being clear, repeating that "if you think drug use is the problem" isn't helping you.

I'll say it one more time so you can catch it this time.

IMO, drug use isn't the problem.

 

[Timshel]

Alright sorry damo, but you said... "poor habit of drug use." I assumed that meant you were agreeing with Ditzy's misdiagnosis. What you are calling the problem is just government then. But, there is definitely a problem with drug abuse which is used to demonize all drug use and users. No different than when people pretend all gun owners are some kind of Yosemite Sams or thugs.

 

[Damocles]

Alright sorry damo, but you said... "poor habit of drug use." I assumed that meant you were agreeing with Ditzy's misdiagnosis. What you are calling the problem is just government then. But, there is definitely a problem with drug abuse which is used to demonize all drug use and users. No different than when people pretend all gun owners are some kind of Yosemite Sams or thugs.

I used the words of an earlier post by another.

 

[Timshel]

Again, IMO, ...

I posted that one before seeing your earlier response.

 

[Damocles]

Alright sorry damo, but you said... "poor habit of drug use." I assumed that meant you were agreeing with Ditzy's misdiagnosis. What you are calling the problem is just government then. But, there is definitely a problem with drug abuse which is used to demonize all drug use and users. No different than when people pretend all gun owners are some kind of Yosemite Sams or thugs.

Of course there is an issue with abuse. However, rather than learning from far more effective laws against just that already in place (alcohol), we instead went back to the old standby of "prohibition" and then instead of just looking at it objectively, noticing that it doesn't work at all, and decriminalizing like we did with alcohol (making an age limit, etc.) we just throw good money after bad trying to stop people from acting like people.

Nobody seeks to "legalize" it in a free-for-all... That's just a silly straw man created by those who want to continue the idiocy of the war on drugs.

 

[wiseones2cents]

You're evading. "Legalize It," ban it or not?

Listen, people can debate legalizing pot or not. There are venues for that. But when you are promoting use(Via entertainment), especially to the youth? UNACCEPTABLE.

Yes. Methods of alcohol preparation often involve pasteurization. The Egyptians did not understand why their beer was safer than water. But, it often was. Most ships would not have gone out without healthful benefits of alcohol.

Also, alcohol was largely a way to preserve grain.

Ummm Alcohol dehydrates, water hydrates. To say they were using alcohol to substitute for water is illogical.

These things are crazy while your worldwide conspiracy among witch doctors and other tribal healers makes perfect sense... To the delusional.

Everything I say makes 100% sense to anyone with 1/2 a brain. You know, the ones who didn't burn all their brain cells doing drugs.

Do you want to change your ridiculous assertion to most of it came from foreign sources? Even your sources talk about how most of the imports came from the Americas. I seriously doubt European sources accounted for more than a small percentage of alcohol. You have provided nothing to show otherwise. You have not even shown that most of it was imported.

When I say Europe it can also refer to European colonies.

The Americas were all European colonies. Even though countries gain independancy? Their colonial masters hardly ever lose their influence.

I still believe the Europeans were doing a large portion of the smuggling.

Whether it was mostly imported or not? The point being that no mater how many local distilleres they busted? There was still a steady flow of alcohol coming from foreign sources.

Therefore they could have busted every establishment in America and it would not made much of a difference, with foreign suppliers always able to import the alcohol.

 

[wiseones2cents]

Going after the supply or the user, is not going to ever work. It doesn't matter if you approach it from that perspective, it just will not work. Why? Because it doesn't address the root problem! To hell with 'better educating the children' they seem to be getting it, because use is declining among the teens, it's the ADULTS who need some education! You can't solve a problem by tackling the symptoms! Tons and tons of drugs are produced, sold, and used in America... until you address WHY, you will not solve the problem.

Use is declining among the teens?Try again. Its not.

Actually I asked a bunch of drug addicts the other day, and the seem to agree with me more. Cut the source. If its harder for the existing addicts to get any supply, they will be forced to sober up. Alot of addicts want to stop but they just dont know how.

People do drugs because they are not content with life naturally. They seek to escape the 'norm' or remove the 'pain' of emotion, or maybe out of boredom, depression, or loneliness, they seek to escape the sense of reality. A variety of issues and pressures may cause this, and some people have a higher degree of susceptibility to addiction.

I think that was the case in the old and days. Today, drug use is a trend(its cool). I know children that are very happy that come from very wealthy families that still do alot of drugs. Some do it for attention, but most because they can afford alot of it and it can make them popular.

Therefore peer pressure is the number one reason children try drugs.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Use is declining among the teens?Try again. Its not.

Okay, here is where I provide something to back up what I said, and all you have presented is your uninformed opinion...

http://www.infoplease.com/science/health/drug-use-decline.html

Decline in Drug Use among American Adolescents
Source: Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.

In September 2007, the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, led by the U.S. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA), released its annual study, which surveyed approximately 67,500 people. SAMHSA reported that illicit drug use has declined among American teens ages 12 to 17. Studies show that the rate of teens ages 12 to 17 who acknowledge using drugs in the last month dropped from 11.6% in 2002 to 9.8% in 2006. In particular, marijuana use significantly declined among teens ages 12 to 17—most notably among male adolescents—from 8.2% in 2002 to 6.7% in 2006. The survey also indicates that cigarette use among adults ages 18 to 25 decreased from 2002 to 2006.

Prescription drug misuse is a growing concern, however. The nonmedical use of prescription drugs among adults increased from 5.4% in 2002 to 6.4% in 2006, largely as a result of the nonmedical use of pain relievers. According to the 2006 survey 22.6 million Americans have had substance abuse or dependency problems in the past year.

Actually I asked a bunch of drug addicts the other day, and the seem to agree with me more. Cut the source. If its harder for the existing addicts to get any supply, they will be forced to sober up. Alot of addicts want to stop but they just dont know how.

We've spent billions of dollars since the 1980's, trying to "cut the source" and it's not working. We've tried putting the dealers in jail as well as the users... doesn't work. We've tried making the penalties more harsh... doesn't work. We've tried confiscating property and money from dealers and users... doesn't work. We've formed D.A.R.E. and implemented in-school education programs... hasn't worked. What works, is for the addict to realize and understand, they are doing drugs because they are unhappy with life and want to escape reality of it, and dealing with that.

I think that was the case in the old and days. Today, drug use is a trend(its cool). I know children that are very happy that come from very wealthy families that still do alot of drugs. Some do it for attention, but most because they can afford alot of it and it can make them popular.

Therefore peer pressure is the number one reason children try drugs.

Well, I didn't say anything about "rich or poor" so why do you go there? Do you think being wealthy or coming from a wealthy family, somehow cancels out boredom, loneliness, depression, and low self-esteem? I would argue, in some cases, coming from wealth actually exacerbates the problem.

Now think about what you are saying regarding peer pressure... Does a person who is happy, content, secure in their own skin, confident, and optimistic about life.... succumb to peer pressures? Isn't it most likely, the teen who caves to peer pressure is experiencing the very things I stated? What you are saying, basically, is that people don't die from cancer! Nope... they die from kidney failure, liver failure, hemorrhaging, etc. (of course, those are caused by the cancer.) It's just a stupid way of saying the exact same thing that I said.

 

[Timshel]

Listen, people can debate legalizing pot or not. There are venues for that. But when you are promoting use(Via entertainment), especially to the youth? UNACCEPTABLE.

Still evading. Easy question that can can be answered with 2-3 keystrokes. "Legalize It" should it be banned?

Ummm Alcohol dehydrates, water hydrates. To say they were using alcohol to substitute for water is illogical.

Okay, then what did the sailors drink? Sea water? You are misinformed. beer wont normally hydrate as well as water, but it can be used to provide your body with needed water. You can live on nothing but beer. Dehydration want kill you but vitamin deficiency will.

Besides, I am not saying they never drank water. But that beer was used to supplement it. People noticed that those drinking beer often outlived those only drinking water. Do you know the per capita consumption levels during the period? It was extremely high, even the kids were pounding it.

When I say Europe it can also refer to European colonies.

The Americas were all European colonies. Even though countries gain independancy? Their colonial masters hardly ever lose their influence.

I still believe the Europeans were doing a large portion of the smuggling.

Whether it was mostly imported or not? The point being that no mater how many local distilleres they busted? There was still a steady flow of alcohol coming from foreign sources.

Therefore they could have busted every establishment in America and it would not made much of a difference, with foreign suppliers always able to import the alcohol.

hehe, nice back pedal. You are not counting Canada as a colony are you? To what colonies are you referring? Prohibition occurred in the early 20th century not the 18th. And now you even back off the most claim.

 

[wiseones2cents]

Okay, here is where I provide something to back up what I said, and all you have presented is your uninformed opinion...

http://www.infoplease.com/science/health/drug-use-decline.html

Decline in Drug Use among American Adolescents
Source: Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.

In September 2007, the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, led by the U.S. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA), released its annual study, which surveyed approximately 67,500 people. SAMHSA reported that illicit drug use has declined among American teens ages 12 to 17. Studies show that the rate of teens ages 12 to 17 who acknowledge using drugs in the last month dropped from 11.6% in 2002 to 9.8% in 2006. In particular, marijuana use significantly declined among teens ages 12 to 17—most notably among male adolescents—from 8.2% in 2002 to 6.7% in 2006. The survey also indicates that cigarette use among adults ages 18 to 25 decreased from 2002 to 2006.

Prescription drug misuse is a growing concern, however. The nonmedical use of prescription drugs among adults increased from 5.4% in 2002 to 6.4% in 2006, largely as a result of the nonmedical use of pain relievers. According to the 2006 survey 22.6 million Americans have had substance abuse or dependency problems in the past year.

You must be joking! How does this survey come up with these figures? Do they ask all the teens if they smoke drugs and expect an honest reply?

I have a few teenage children and they say pretty much EVERYONE of their friends are smoking drugs. I was going through my daughter's face book and someone asked if my daughters friend(who lives an hour away) knows anyone that smokes weed. The reply? Pretty much everyone I know. Nope. Doesn't sound like it is declining to me.

These surveys are a joke.

Prescription drugs are becoming a problem because the SUPPLY is more available.

We've spent billions of dollars since the 1980's, trying to "cut the source" and it's not working. We've tried putting the dealers in jail as well as the users... doesn't work. We've tried making the penalties more harsh... doesn't work. We've tried confiscating property and money from dealers and users... doesn't work. We've formed D.A.R.E. and implemented in-school education programs... hasn't worked. What works, is for the addict to realize and understand, they are doing drugs because they are unhappy with life and want to escape reality of it, and dealing with that.

Oh please. What source have you cut? How many crops have they eradicated in Colombia? Judging by the amount of Cocaine being brought internationally? I'd say the crops are massive.

Putting the dealers and users in jail wont work(unless they are crack, cocaine, heroin addicts). That will sober them up a bit. provided no drugs gets into the prisons though that is another topic.

Like I said. Most people use drugs recreationally. To get accepted by their peers or just to have a few laughs. Its the in thing to do. It has nothing to do with their lives being bad. You are clueless. I have been around drug users all my life. Very few people do drugs to escape their lives.

Well, I didn't say anything about "rich or poor" so why do you go there? Do you think being wealthy or coming from a wealthy family, somehow cancels out boredom, loneliness, depression, and low self-esteem? I would argue, in some cases, coming from wealth actually exacerbates the problem.

Now think about what you are saying regarding peer pressure... Does a person who is happy, content, secure in their own skin, confident, and optimistic about life.... succumb to peer pressures?

ABSOLUTELY!!!Without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[wiseones2cents]

Still evading. Easy question that can can be answered with 2-3 keystrokes. "Legalize It" should it be banned?

I still don't get what you are saying, if you feel I haven't answered the question to your liking.

What? To sing about promoting drugs(legalize it)? OF COURSE. YES!

Should we sing about promoting beatings(wait they already do).

Should we sing about promoting killing people(wait they already do).

Promoting things that are illegal should be illegal. There is a time and a place to challenge laws and singing to a young audience, isn't one of them!

Okay, then what did the sailors drink? Sea water? You are misinformed. beer wont normally hydrate as well as water, but it can be used to provide your body with needed water. You can live on nothing but beer. Dehydration want kill you but vitamin deficiency will.

OHHHH So sailors didn't drink any water and had cases of beer on board instead!

Besides, I am not saying they never drank water. But that beer was used to supplement it. People noticed that those drinking beer often outlived those only drinking water. Do you know the per capita consumption levels during the period? It was extremely high, even the kids were pounding it.

Probably used to keep morale up.

hehe, nice back pedal. You are not counting Canada as a colony are you? To what colonies are you referring? Prohibition occurred in the early 20th century not the 18th. And now you even back off the most claim.

Yup! Canada is a 1/2 French 1/2 British colony. They may have claimed independence but European influence is still strong in both Canada and the USA.

All the Caribbeans and Mexico are also colonies.

European elites still run the show pretty much globally.