union as a civil right

Ice Dancer said:
I agree that they have a right to exist-I also agree that employers have a right to establish boundaries with those unions.
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I think they should have a right to exist. I also think if they dislike the boundaries established by the employers, they are free to seek employment elsewhere.
 
The employers are also free to hire less qualified people, and then you have to have the union guys come in and clean it up! I have seen this happen so many times. My hubby was a union mason for many years. They always had to redo shoddy work of the non union contractors!
 
Rana said:
The employers are also free to hire less qualified people, and then you have to have the union guys come in and clean it up! I have seen this happen so many times. My hubby was a union mason for many years. They always had to redo shoddy work of the non union contractors!
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Non-union doesn't necessarily mean shoddy work. Nor does union necessarily mean quality work. I have seen some worthless workers with union cards.
 
WinterBorn said:
I think they should have a right to exist. I also think if they dislike the boundaries established by the employers, they are free to seek employment elsewhere.
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So, basically, you support the right of unions to exist as debate societies among employees, not as the employee representative for purposes of bargaining with employer.
 
NigelTufnel said:
So, basically, you support the right of unions to exist as debate societies among employees, not as the employee representative for purposes of bargaining with employer.
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So my agreeing with the statement that the employer should be able to set boundaries is the same as taking away all the unions rights?

Kind of a stretch there, wouldn't you say?
 
WinterBorn said:
So my agreeing with the statement that the employer should be able to set boundaries is the same as taking away all the unions rights?

Kind of a stretch there, wouldn't you say?
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It is the mentality of the lemmings on the left. If you are not in support of the unions being able to do anything they want, then you are against them completely.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
And how are these questions even relevent? Those are arguments used by people who want to undermine and eliminate collective bargaining rights by eliminating the mechanisms by which they work. Unions oppose open shops because those who don't pay dues benefit off the backs of those who do and open shops are used ruthlessly by employers to eliminate unions.

How union members vote as individuals privately in public elections is irrelevent to how they operate as an organization or how they vote for their representation in that organization. Union members vote for their representation and if they don't like how that representation operates they are free to elect others to represent them, so that's a strawman argument.

Secret ballots are also used by companies to delay union elections and to bring pressure to bear on employees by threatening their jobs and careers if they support union representation again, a tool the right wing uses to suppress collective bargaining.

Just admit it, you want to deny people their rights to collectively bargain by any means neccessary.
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I believe it's relevant to the issue of whether union membership is really a civil rights issue....I will admit it's a power issue, but it has never been about the rights of workers or even union members.....it's only been about the rights of unions.....

and by the way, can you please explain to me how someone can pressure someone's vote in a secret ballot.....
 
WinterBorn said:
Non-union doesn't necessarily mean shoddy work. Nor does union necessarily mean quality work. I have seen some worthless workers with union cards.
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It is a little harder being that you have to go through a journeyman program. I have encountered far more shoddy non union than union work, but your point is well made.

I just look for the union label, they are also bonded and insured. The other guys may or may not be.
 
Superfreak said:
It is the mentality of the lemmings on the left. If you are not in support of the unions being able to do anything they want, then you are against them completely.
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I have found that to be the case more often than not. I haven't seen too much support from any of you on unions, public or not. I guess it is just the perception you give.
 
Rana said:
I have found that to be the case more often than not. I haven't seen too much support from any of you on unions, public or not. I guess it is just the perception you give.
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In other discussion on unions in general, I have said that I am not a fan of unions. I think we all owe them a debt of gratitude, but I think, for the most part, their time has passed.

I don't think the union is any more concerned about the individual worker than the company is or the gov't is. The union is concerned about the union.

And it depends on maintaining an adversarial relationship between workers and mgmt.
 
Damocles said:
Again. It shouldn't matter if there is a union, if it is a right of association I have a right to simply tell them to go jump in poop. And I'm not "wrong". If they unionized here, I would be forced to join the union. If I filed paperwork to not be part of it I would STILL have to pay them for "representing" me. So long as they have that power, the "right of association" argument they are trying to put forward here doesn't apply.
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And since the leavebaggers are so fond of bringing up the past; let's remember how Union thugs "convinced" people to join and how to vote.
But then, I guess thats a "right" also.
 
WinterBorn said:
In other discussion on unions in general, I have said that I am not a fan of unions. I think we all owe them a debt of gratitude, but I think, for the most part, their time has passed.

I don't think the union is any more concerned about the individual worker than the company is or the gov't is. The union is concerned about the union.

And it depends on maintaining an adversarial relationship between workers and mgmt.
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I believe their time has come again, because the middle class is losing ground.
A great many corporations are making profits and they would rather pay their shareholders than the workers who make it possible.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Give it up Damo. Those leaders who joined did not do so from free choice or free association but from the threat of having their brains blown out at the point of a gun.
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And of course, that has never occured in the US.
We must be lucky that our Unions never ever used violence as a way to convince anyone to see things their way. :good4u:
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
And of course, that has never occured in the US.
We must be lucky that our Unions never ever used violence as a way to convince anyone to see things their way. :good4u:
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Well, you are wrong once again, there has been violence on both sides, as always! :good4u:

Management violence

Management violence usually takes the form of bullying of or aggression against union organisers or sympathisers in the workplace. It is rarely if ever delivered by employers or senior managers directly, but by front-line managers (e.g. chargehands or foremen) or by other employees incited by management. In a number of well-known cases, however, violent action has been taken against union workers, and unions have charged that this was at the instigation of management or of government bodies sympathetic to management's aims. Well known examples include:




Violence against union leaders can occur within a highly charged political context, and is rare in straightforward industrial disputes - not least because historically, management has often had ready recourse to the law to enforce its position. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle_martyrs were Penal transportation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Black-eyed_Sue_and_Sweet_Poll_of_Plymouth_taking_leave_of_their_lovers_who_are_going_to_Botany_Bay.jpeg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Black-eyed_Sue_and_Sweet_Poll_of_Plymouth_taking_leave_of_their_lovers_who_are_going_to_Botany_Bay.jpeg/220px-Black-eyed_Sue_and_Sweet_Poll_of_Plymouth_taking_leave_of_their_lovers_who_are_going_to_Botany_Bay.jpeg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/4/42/Black-eyed_Sue_and_Sweet_Poll_of_Plymouth_taking_leave_of_their_lovers_who_are_going_to_Botany_Bay.jpeg/220px-Black-eyed_Sue_and_Sweet_Poll_of_Plymouth_taking_leave_of_their_lovers_who_are_going_to_Botany_Bay.jpeg by due process of law rather than by management violence, and in a strike organised by Victor Reuther and others in 1937, the workers were attacked with Tear gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Bastille_2007-05-06_anti_Sarkozy_487645695_abe4befd12_o.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Bastille_2007-05-06_anti_Sarkozy_487645695_abe4befd12_o.jpg/220px-Bastille_2007-05-06_anti_Sarkozy_487645695_abe4befd12_o.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/3/3e/Bastille_2007-05-06_anti_Sarkozy_487645695_abe4befd12_o.jpg/220px-Bastille_2007-05-06_anti_Sarkozy_487645695_abe4befd12_o.jpg and firearms by the police.
[edit] Union violence

Union violence is rarely aimed at managers or employers. Attacks on employers' property do occur - the word Sabotage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia derives from French workers' practice of hurling their clogs (sabots) into machinery as a form of protest - in the furtherance of industrial disputes. A modern example was the destruction of electrical transformers by members of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png, depriving 400,000 Alaska - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Flag_of_Alaska.svg" class="image" title="Flag of Alaska"><img alt="Flag of Alaska" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_Alaska.svg/125px-Flag_of_Alaska.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_Alaska.svg/125px-Flag_of_Alaska.svg.png of power in the middle of winter.[Wikipedia:Citation needed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png/300px-Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/3/31/Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png/300px-Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png]
The targets of true union violence are normally nonunion workers.[Wikipedia:Citation needed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png/300px-Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/3/31/Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png/300px-Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png] Protest and verbal abuse are routinely aimed against union members or replacement workers who cross picket lines during industrial disputes ("blacklegs"), and occasionally this erupts into violent confrontation. The inherent aim of a union is to create a labor Monopoly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png so as to balance the Monopsony - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Monopsony-static-partial-equilibrium.svg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cb/Monopsony-static-partial-equilibrium.svg/300px-Monopsony-static-partial-equilibrium.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/c/cb/Monopsony-static-partial-equilibrium.svg/300px-Monopsony-static-partial-equilibrium.svg.png a large employer enjoys as a purchaser of labor. Strikebreakers threaten that aim and undermine the union's bargaining position. Bitterness against such actions may break out into violence. Occasionally such a violent dispute can involve entire unions, when one union breaks another's strike. In 2004, the murder of Keith Frogson in the village of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annesley_Woodhouse, Nottinghamshire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:County_Flag_of_Nottinghamshire.png" class="image"><img alt="County Flag of Nottinghamshire.png" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/County_Flag_of_Nottinghamshire.png/150px-County_Flag_of_Nottinghamshire.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/cd/County_Flag_of_Nottinghamshire.png/150px-County_Flag_of_Nottinghamshire.png in England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Flag_of_England.svg" class="image" title="Flag of England"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/125px-Flag_of_England.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/125px-Flag_of_England.svg.png may have been the result of a feud dating from the coal-miner's strike in the 1980s, when Mr Frogson and his alleged killer were members of two opposed unions, the established and militant National Union of Mineworkers (Great Britain) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:NUM_logo.png" class="image"><img alt="NUM logo.png" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/NUM_logo.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/7/75/NUM_logo.png and the breakaway Union of Democratic Mineworkers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Syndicalism.svg" class="image"><img alt="Syndicalism.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Syndicalism.svg/28px-Syndicalism.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/d/d5/Syndicalism.svg/28px-Syndicalism.svg.png.[4]
Examples of union violence include:

Union violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png
 
Rana said:
Well, you are wrong once again, there has been violence on both sides, as always! :good4u:

Management violence

Management violence usually takes the form of bullying of or aggression against union organisers or sympathisers in the workplace. It is rarely if ever delivered by employers or senior managers directly, but by front-line managers (e.g. chargehands or foremen) or by other employees incited by management. In a number of well-known cases, however, violent action has been taken against union workers, and unions have charged that this was at the instigation of management or of government bodies sympathetic to management's aims. Well known examples include:




Violence against union leaders can occur within a highly charged political context, and is rare in straightforward industrial disputes - not least because historically, management has often had ready recourse to the law to enforce its position. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle_martyrs were Penal transportation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and firearms by the police.
[edit] Union violence

Union violence is rarely aimed at managers or employers. Attacks on employers' property do occur - the word Sabotage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia derives from French workers' practice of hurling their clogs (sabots) into machinery as a form of protest - in the furtherance of industrial disputes. A modern example was the destruction of electrical transformers by members of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/I]]
The targets of true union violence are normally nonunion workers.[Wikipedia:Citation needed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.[4]
Examples of union violence include:

  • 2004 AFL-CIO push their way into a Republican field office in Orlando FL, breaking the wrist of one staffer. AFL-CIO member Van Church is unrepentant: "If his wrist was fractured, it's a result of his own actions in jerking the door the way he did."
  • 1999 - During protests by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Local 1547 against a non-unionized workforce getting a contract, picketers threatened and assaulted workers, spat at them, sabotaged equipment, and shot guns near workers. The Alaska Supreme Court ruled that the union had engaged in "ongoing acts of intimidation, violence, destruction of property".
  • 1999 - During protests by Laborers' International Union of North America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Local 310, picketers punched a worker, and threw coffee cups at workers.
  • 1999 - Members of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Local 120 were convicted of striking a worker, and imprisoning another one in a truck trailer.
  • 1998 - Teamsters Orestes Espinosa, Angel Mielgo, Werner Haechler, Benigno Rojas, and Adrian Paez beat, kicked, and stabbed a United Parcel Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia worker (Rod Carter) who refused to strike, after Carter received a threatening phone call from the home of Anthony Cannestro, Sr., president of Teamsters Local 769.
  • 1998 - During the Communications Workers of America U.S. West strike a worker was threatened with a gun, and a manager was hit in the head with a rock.
  • 1990 - on the first day of The Daily News (New York) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Strikers followed replacement laborers and threatened them with baseball bats. Strikers then started threatening newsstands with arson, or stole all copies of the Daily News and burned them in front of the newsstands. Independent sources estimated over a thousand reports of threats. The newspaper recorded over two thousand legal violations. The Police Department, recorded more than 500 incidents. 50 strikers were arrested. Bombings of delivery trucks became common, with 11 strikers arrested on one day in October.
    [*]1984 - Taxi driver David Wilkie was killed by NUM strikers while driving a non-striking worker during the UK mining strike
    [*]1983 - Eddie York was murdered for crossing a United Mine Workers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (UMW) picket line.
    [*]1926 - Striking workers derail The Flying Scotsman train with over 100 passengers on board

Union violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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So you're basically ok with it, as long as the other side does something similar.
How compassionate of you.
 
Rana said:
No, Yurt the Second, :palm: I was just giving you the facts, and I do not condone violence.
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OK Zap second cousin.
You did nothing but promote the 'RIGHTS OF UNIONS" and never said a negative word about them, until it was brought up.

Unions have outlved their usefullness and now are as bad as the companies they once banded together to stop.

Try looking up I think it was Phelps Dodge Mining, in AZ.
Copper prices were down and the company made sure that everyone was fed, no one lost their home, utilities stayed on; for around a year.
As soon as the mine was reopened, the UNION went on strike.
The company fired everyone of the ungratefull bastards.
 
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