There are 120 guns for every 100 Americans

The numbers are so compelling it's hard to understand how they remain willfully blind.

No it's not. They're Republicans. Blocking anything other than tax cut or appointing religious nuts to SCOTUS - is all they've done the past 20 years. We can't depend on Republicans to do anything good for America. Republicans are nothing but cynical traitors.
 
Where I disagree with right-wingers is in the vast blind spot they tend to have when it comes to an infringement on liberty that ISN'T by the federal government. I recognize, for example, that my fundamental right to life can be taken from me by a private actor, like a crazed gunman. My freedoms can also be taken by state governments, such as when it comes to reproductive freedom.

I'm reminded of a line from Mark Twain, where he said to put all your eggs in one basket AND THEN WATCH THAT BASKET. I wouldn't go quite that far, but that's a concept worth considering when it comes to government. With the federal government, we tend to be in a better position to watch that basket, in order to defend our rights.

So, it's not that I advocate empowering the federal government to dictate our rights to us. It's that I advocate empowering the voters to use the federal government to secure their rights. Others want to disempower them, so that various other forces don't need to worry about the federal government when it comes time to seize rights. The pending abortion case is a great example, where the Supreme Court's arch conservatives have basically gutted a federal protection so that state governments can seize a woman's control over her own uterus.

While the eggs-in-one-basket aphorism is interesting, it requires one to 1) have control over the basket or 2) trust whomever is in charge of watching the basket.

You're saying the Democrats are honest and trustworthy enough to watch the basket for us if we just give them all of our eggs. I disagree.
 
While the eggs-in-one-basket aphorism is interesting, it requires one to 1) have control over the basket or 2) trust whomever is in charge of watching the basket.

You're saying the Democrats are honest and trustworthy enough to watch the basket for us if we just give them all of our eggs. I disagree.

I'm not saying that. There are clearly some really dishonest and untrustworthy Dems. Sinema, for example, is someone I suspect would toss a child in front of a train if it advanced her career even a little. But, on average, Democratic leadership has been good for America. So, as long as we keep our eyes on them and hold them accountable, I think they generally push in the right direction.... which is a whole lot more than you can say for the modern GOP.
 
And how many deaths there? And from guns? In 2020, 45,222 Americans died from gun injuries. It's roughly the same year in and year out. With 9/11, it was 2,977 killed 21 years ago. We're talking hundreds and hundreds of times more of a death toll from guns than from terrorist attacks in the US.

Be honest: How many of those were suicides. Then tell me how banning ARs and high capacity magazines would have saved a single suicide.
 
So, it's a topic for discussion. We lead the world in gun ownership, and in gun violence. This is not a coincidence.

It's worth discussing. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe people are fine that we lead the world in gun violence, and this is just the way it is.

so you would rather live in a communist country and lose your head (literally) for saying the wrong thing in public?
 
I'm not saying that. There are clearly some really dishonest and untrustworthy Dems. Sinema, for example, is someone I suspect would toss a child in front of a train if it advanced her career even a little. But, on average, Democratic leadership has been good for America. So, as long as we keep our eyes on them and hold them accountable, I think they generally push in the right direction.... which is a whole lot more than you can say for the modern GOP.

It's not the individuals I'm referencing, it's the ideology. Consider Politalker's comment as a succinct POV of the Democratic Party:

Yes, government needs to enact more control over people's lives, because too many people are acting too irresponsibly. That is government's role. We can't wish this problem away.

I disagree with her and I'm disagreeing with you for the same reason as pointed out about the basket of eggs:

1. Power corrupts. Giving absolute power to a central government will result in absolute corruption.

2. Who determines what is best for how you should live your life? If you empower the Federal government with absolute power then what happens when another Trumpian asshole is elected to office? Julius Caesar was only thinking of his present when he broke the Roman Republic and installed himself as a dictator. He wasn't thinking of the consequences such as Caligula or Nero a hundred years down the road.

The Democrats preach about the consequences of global warming in a hundred years. I agree with them on the hazards. What they don't do is preach the hazards of a highly centralized Federal government where Americans are supposed to trust them since they no longer have the power to oppose them.
 
Be honest: How many of those were suicides.

24,292.

Then tell me how banning ARs and high capacity magazines would have saved a single suicide.

It probably wouldn't prevent a lot of them, since the kinds of gun nuts who buy ARs typically will just buy some other gun if they don't have the option of buying an AR, and so still will have a weapon on hand to blow their own heads off when they crack.

As I've said elsewhere, handguns are the main show when it comes to gun deaths. They're far more likely to be used for murder, and I suspect they're more commonly involved in suicides and accidental shootings, as well.... partly because they're more common, and partly just because they're more likely to be at hand at any given moment (e.g., people aren't walking around with loaded AR-15's in their purses, just waiting for some curious toddler to reach in and kill someone).

Banning AR's and large magazines is about trying to cut down on the average death toll during a rare kind of shooting: the spree massacre. Because those are rare, there aren't going to be huge life savings there. But, since other kinds of weapons are just fine for home defense, hunting, and sport shooting, banning AR's is something we could do without losing anything worth saving in gun culture.
 
Hello Dutch,

It's not the individuals I'm referencing, it's the ideology. Consider Politalker's comment as a succinct POV of the Democratic Party:



I disagree with her and I'm disagreeing with you for the same reason as pointed out about the basket of eggs:

1. Power corrupts. Giving absolute power to a central government will result in absolute corruption.

2. Who determines what is best for how you should live your life? If you empower the Federal government with absolute power then what happens when another Trumpian asshole is elected to office? Julius Caesar was only thinking of his present when he broke the Roman Republic and installed himself as a dictator. He wasn't thinking of the consequences such as Caligula or Nero a hundred years down the road.

The Democrats preach about the consequences of global warming in a hundred years. I agree with them on the hazards. What they don't do is preach the hazards of a highly centralized Federal government where Americans are supposed to trust them since they no longer have the power to oppose them.

'Giving government absolute power' was never anything I proposed.

That is an exaggeration I am not obliged to answer to.
 
Hello Mina,

Strange non-sequitur. Obviously, banning abortion and gay marriage would be bad for society.



OK. However, it's not clear how many lives that would save. When you compare us to peer nations you'll find that non-firearm homicides here are about three times as common, but that total homicides are about nine times as common. That suggests that about 1/3 of the problem is things like culture and poor mental health treatment, while 2/3 is guns.



There's always apoplectic sputtering among gun enthusiasts when one brings it up, since it's such an obvious problem with trying to interpret the "right to bear arms" as an absolute right that cannot be infringed. Deep down pretty much everyone agrees that the government can and should decide which arms people get to bear. We just disagree about the details of which it should be banning. That's an uncomfortable point for the gun enthusiasts to grapple with, so they'd rather just throw their hands up in indigitation and incredulity when the point is made, and pretend that somehow erases the point. But it doesn't. The fact remains nearly all of us support drawing a line SOMEWHERE, in the spectrum of escalating arms. And that tears away the absolutist pretensions of the gun nuts and focuses the debate on more practical considerations of cost/benefit analysis for any proposed dividing line.



My analysis of cost-per-life-saved from paying for enhanced school security actually UNDERSELLS my point. I used 130,930 as the number of schools when calculating costs of security, yet when calculating school shooting averages, I used a figure that includes university shootings like the big one at Virginia Tech. So, that error would give us a "cost per life saved" that's too low. In reality, I should have subtracted out the college shootings, which would give us even fewer "lives saved" for the cost.

My point also undersells costs in that the 130,930 figure is the number of institutions, rather than buildings, and if you were to try to solve this with guards and security doors, etc., buildings are really the more relevant consideration. For example, one local high school I know effectively has two "campuses" -- one is the main building, and the other is a vocational education building, physically separated by some distance to reduce the distraction from noisy heavy machinery running. Schools with multiple large buildings are common, and some schools have a hell of a lot more than just two buildings, too. Like this one looks like it has about 17 buildings of significant size:

https://www.exeter.edu/about-us/our...y is located,placed prominently at the center.

One guard isn't going to cut it, there. So, any solution based around physical security of that sort is either going to have a MUCH higher per-school cost, or will cover a lot less than 100% of school buildings (and thus have no chance of getting rid of all or even most school shootings). So, either way, that greatly drives up the cost-per-life-saved. A more realistic figure might be about $1 billion per life saved -- in the context of countless other ways to spend our money that would save more like one life for every $10 million. It's horrendously inefficient.

Such a good point, made with indisputable data.

It is absurd to think that the answer lies in first assuming that nothing should be done to infringe on the right to bear arms, and then trying to formulate a solution on that basis.

The problem is the 2nd.

It is out dated. The concerns raised in the 2nd no longer exist. We do have a very serious problem now that does exist.

I am willing to talk about rewriting the 2nd and replacing it with something that allows personal gun ownership but attempts to prevent the weapons of war in the general public and also attempts to prevent crazy and violent aggressive people from getting guns to play out their demented fantasies. Basically, new gun regulations that make us all safer.

But if gun enthusiasts are not willing to even entertain this need then I will be left with no choice but to ratchet up my view to become one of simply repeal the 2nd and get rid of all guns.

I am willing to compromise on gun ownership in the interest of safety.

Gun enthusiasts need to bring something else to the table or I am going to be pushed towards a position of total anti-gun advocacy.

Countries which have banned guns do not have this problem.

Entire countries have become no gun zones and it does not lead to unchecked gun crimes. That is pure BS from the NRA. We have more guns and more shootings as a result. We gotta reduce the guns. There are more guns than people in the USA. It is ridiculous. The gun profiteers are rolling in money, but it is never enough for them. What greedy person ever says 'enough?'
 
Hello Dutch,

'Giving government absolute power' was never anything I proposed.

That is an exaggeration I am not obliged to answer to.
Then maybe I misunderstood this comment:

Yes, government needs to enact more control over people's lives, because too many people are acting too irresponsibly. That is government's role. We can't wish this problem away.
 
Hello Dutch,

Not a non sequitur when you consider Gerald Ford's quote; once you give the Federal government enough power to overturn the Constitution, you have given them absolute power.

“A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.”

Agreed on the problem of public safety; how do you determine how many lives are saved versus the cost of maintaining the safety system. However, that's not my main concern. My main concern is how much freedom are We, the People willing to give up to live in the basement of a parental Federal government taking care of us from cradle to grave.

You advocate empowering the Federal government to to dictate our rights to us. I disagree with that idea.

Total and complete exaggeration.
 
Hello Mina,



Such a good point, made with indisputable data.

It is absurd to think that the answer lies in first assuming that nothing should be done to infringe on the right to bear arms, and then trying to formulate a solution on that basis.

The problem is the 2nd.

It is out dated. The concerns raised in the 2nd no longer exist. We do have a very serious problem now that does exist.

I am willing to talk about rewriting the 2nd and replacing it with something that allows personal gun ownership but attempts to prevent the weapons of war in the general public and also attempts to prevent crazy and violent aggressive people from getting guns to play out their demented fantasies. Basically, new gun regulations that make us all safer.

But if gun enthusiasts are not willing to even entertain this need then I will be left with no choice but to ratchet up my view to become one of simply repeal the 2nd and get rid of all guns.

I am willing to compromise on gun ownership in the interest of safety.

Gun enthusiasts need to bring something else to the table or I am going to be pushed towards a position of total anti-gun advocacy.

Countries which have banned guns do not have this problem.

Entire countries have become no gun zones and it does not lead to unchecked gun crimes. That is pure BS from the NRA. We have more guns and more shootings as a result. We gotta reduce the guns. There are more guns than people in the USA. It is ridiculous. The gun profiteers are rolling in money, but it is never enough for them. What greedy person ever says 'enough?'

In my opinion, there is no need to amend the constitution. No amendment was needed for the Brady bill. We just need to pass some sensible gun laws, man! And we need to get those ARs off the street.

I believe we will do it, too. Uvalde accelerated this process, I believe.
 
Back
Top