the minimum wage: reality check

Taichiliberal said:
The first 3 words of your little smoke cloud here is a dubious statement at best.

I didn't ask for your opinion, supposition or conjecture....I asked for some valid proof to support/prove the assertions of your like minded compadre. Clearly, you can't provide such...as this sad display of your ignorance of the history of the US labor movement regarding the minimum wage and working conditions shows. So if you can't/won't meet a simple burden of proof, I'm not going to waste time responding to you and will let you rant on.
Click to expand...

Still crying like a little Liberal bitch, I see. Is that all you have pussy? If it is, you have nothing.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Would you give your hard earned money to a bunch of anonymous crooks with immunity from prosecution to gamble with?

I wouldn't, but many did and suffered a degrading of life style via S&L, the housing market bank scam, Wall St. debacle, etc.

Did you know that the majority of people who work minimum wage did so out of necessity thanks to the recessions lay offs via Reaganomics? It either came a supplementary or sole $$ support of a family.

And did you know that both parents working minimum wage are facing hardships in the economy? Or that a SINGLE person with NO family can't cut it on one job doing minimum wage? Did you forget the Shrub's town hall meeting with the woman working 3 jobs to make ends meet?

What the hell do you have against minimum wage hike? It's not inconveniencing you in any way, shape or form, and it would keep people off of food stamps and welfare....something you right wing parrots gripe about all the time.

Here stupid, learn something from the man who saved this country's financial ass decades ago: http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/f-d-r-makes-the-case-for-the-minimum-wage/?_r=0
Click to expand...

Where's the guarantee that it will keep people off food stamps and welfare. That's right. You have no proof. You rant like a little bitch.
 
Taichiliberal said:
cawacko said:
You repeat a flawed and inaccurate scenario, Wack. We're not talking about excising the pay scale to the point where such is meaningless, as we are talking about MINIMUM wage....meaning what is the lowest standard that can be given while having the recipient keep enough cash to have some standard of living above poverty. The lie that minorities and youth in general are "hurt" by a raise in the minimum wage is just that, a lie. Take note: https://ourfuture.org/20140127/5-right-wing-myths-about-raising-the-minimum-wage-debunked
Click to expand...

The current minimum wage pays many people more than the skill set they offer is worth. No one owes them the current minimum.
Click to expand...
 
Mircea said:
The federal minimum wage has increased 16 times since 1965 and it never kept people off of Food Stamps or Welfare.
Click to expand...

How could you possibly know how many people didn't need food assistance because of a wage increase?
You are talking out of your rear vent
 
Mircea said:
Quote Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Actually, it's all about honesty...which obviously YOU are lacking. But let's say you're telling the truth; that would mean you would have had to live with your parents for a LOT more than 4 years in order to maintain a full/part time job AND put in the study hours AND course requirements.
It would also mean that your minimum wage job would just BARELY cover book expenses, travel, what rent you'd throw your parents. Then there's the little matter of TUITION....as you can only be eligible for some much in loans from federal and private. SO, unless mommy and Daddy paid your tuition, or you became well off in the job market, you'd be either up to your ass in debt right now or could NOT afford to make a secondary degree, much less 2 undergraduate. Also, you would be a VERY OLD college student.

the majority of folk out there don't have parents well off enough to cover all those bases. So you'll understand why I find your little tale a lame fantasy.
Click to expand...

I was 41 at the time I went back to school. I already had a Bachelor's, so it only took 2 years to double major in Econ and Poli Sci. I shared a house with other students and non-students. We didn't waste money on cable or cellphones. I didn't have a car to waste money on, either. I got a stipend of $12,000 as a TA during the time I got my Master's (Poli Sci) and PhD (International Relations) and I taught 1st year IR classes in exchange for tuition credits to get my PhD. I managed to save up enough money to live alone my last year of school.

Those who have the desire will simply do it, and those that don't will do nothing but sit around making excuse after excuse.
Click to expand...

Let me deconstruct your yet another one of your attempts to validate your assertion:

1. You were 41 and with a bachelors degree when you went back to school....you weren't a college kid and you had 20 years to in the job market to build a life and some savings.

2. You made a CHOICE to go back...meaning that you already had a life of financially supporting yourself as an adult with no outstanding college debt.

3. You received $12 grand as a "TA" (whatever that is)....that was in addition to whatever cash you saved up over the years to put to your endeavor, because you sure as hell didn't just come off the street flat broke. You got your masters, then got a deal teaching for tuition.

4. No one is faulting your drive and success...but I am pointing out the sheer stupidity of comparing your situation to the everyday college kid, who at 18 to 21 sure as hell doesn't have your resources, experience and is laden with debt just to get a BA. So your bitching about the minimum wage is just that...bitching. No one forced you to take the path you took, but jealousy that you missed out on a minimum wage hike is just childish.
 
Leonthecat said:
How could you possibly know how many people didn't need food assistance because of a wage increase?
You are talking out of your rear vent
Click to expand...

The statement by Mircea is true. Why do you ignore it. If raising the minimum wage would get people off food stamps/welfare like TaichiPussy claims and minimum wage has been increased 16 times since 1965, why are those programs still being used by record numbers of people in 2016?

I'll understand if you can't explain.
 
Taichiliberal said:
cawacko said:
You repeat a flawed and inaccurate scenario, Wack. We're not talking about excising the pay scale to the point where such is meaningless, as we are talking about MINIMUM wage....meaning what is the lowest standard that can be given while having the recipient keep enough cash to have some standard of living above poverty. The lie that minorities and youth in general are "hurt" by a raise in the minimum wage is just that, a lie. Take note: https://ourfuture.org/20140127/5


I point to a study showing how the increase does hurt minority youth.

Here is the Executive Summary:


Executive Summary

The federal government has imposed a minimum wage since 1938, and nearly all the states impose their own minimum wages. These laws prevent employers from paying wages below a mandated level. While the aim is to help workers, decades of economic research show that minimum wages usually end up harming workers and the broader economy. Minimum wages particularly stifle job opportunities for low-skill workers, youth, and minorities, which are the groups that policymakers are often trying to help with these policies.

There is no “free lunch” when the government mandates a minimum wage. If the government requires that certain workers be paid higher wages, then businesses make adjustments to pay for the added costs, such as reducing hiring, cutting employee work hours, reducing benefits, and charging higher prices. Some policymakers may believe that companies simply absorb the costs of minimum wage increases through reduced profits, but
that’s rarely the case. Instead, businesses rationally respond to such mandates by cutting employment and making other decisions to maintain their net earnings. These behavioral responses usually offset the positive labor market results that policymakers are hoping for.

This study reviews the economic models used to understand minimum wage laws and examines the empirical evidence. It describes why most of the academic evidence points to negative effects from minimum wages, and discusses why some studies may produce seemingly positive results.

Some federal and state policymakers are currently considering increases in minimum wages, but such policy changes would be particularly damaging in today’s sluggish economy. Instead, federal and state governments should focus on policies that generate faster economic growth, which would generate rising wages and more opportunities for all workers.


object.cato.org/pubs/pas/PA701.pdf
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Taichiliberal said:
Let me deconstruct your yet another one of your attempts to validate your assertion:

1. You were 41 and with a bachelors degree when you went back to school....you weren't a college kid and you had 20 years to in the job market to build a life and some savings.

2. You made a CHOICE to go back...meaning that you already had a life of financially supporting yourself as an adult with no outstanding college debt.

3. You received $12 grand as a "TA" (whatever that is)....that was in addition to whatever cash you saved up over the years to put to your endeavor, because you sure as hell didn't just come off the street flat broke. You got your masters, then got a deal teaching for tuition.

4. No one is faulting your drive and success...but I am pointing out the sheer stupidity of comparing your situation to the everyday college kid, who at 18 to 21 sure as hell doesn't have your resources, experience and is laden with debt just to get a BA. So your bitching about the minimum wage is just that...bitching. No one forced you to take the path you took, but jealousy that you missed out on a minimum wage hike is just childish.
Click to expand...

Your bitching that someone should be handed a higher minimum for nothing in return is just that . . . bitching.
 
cawacko said:
Taichiliberal said:
cawacko said:
You repeat a flawed and inaccurate scenario, Wack. We're not talking about excising the pay scale to the point where such is meaningless, as we are talking about MINIMUM wage....meaning what is the lowest standard that can be given while having the recipient keep enough cash to have some standard of living above poverty. The lie that minorities and youth in general are "hurt" by a raise in the minimum wage is just that, a lie. Take note: https://ourfuture.org/20140127/5


I point to a study showing how the increase does hurt minority youth.

Here is the Executive Summary:


Executive Summary

The federal government has imposed a minimum wage since 1938, and nearly all the states impose their own minimum wages. These laws prevent employers from paying wages below a mandated level. While the aim is to help workers, decades of economic research show that minimum wages usually end up harming workers and the broader economy. Minimum wages particularly stifle job opportunities for low-skill workers, youth, and minorities, which are the groups that policymakers are often trying to help with these policies.

There is no “free lunch” when the government mandates a minimum wage. If the government requires that certain workers be paid higher wages, then businesses make adjustments to pay for the added costs, such as reducing hiring, cutting employee work hours, reducing benefits, and charging higher prices. Some policymakers may believe that companies simply absorb the costs of minimum wage increases through reduced profits, but
that’s rarely the case. Instead, businesses rationally respond to such mandates by cutting employment and making other decisions to maintain their net earnings. These behavioral responses usually offset the positive labor market results that policymakers are hoping for.

This study reviews the economic models used to understand minimum wage laws and examines the empirical evidence. It describes why most of the academic evidence points to negative effects from minimum wages, and discusses why some studies may produce seemingly positive results.

Some federal and state policymakers are currently considering increases in minimum wages, but such policy changes would be particularly damaging in today’s sluggish economy. Instead, federal and state governments should focus on policies that generate faster economic growth, which would generate rising wages and more opportunities for all workers.


object.cato.org/pubs/pas/PA701.pdf
Click to expand...

Another Koch brothers think tank.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
cawacko said:
Taichiliberal said:
cawacko said:
The link you offered wasn't exactly from a non-partisan site.
Click to expand...

True, but unlike the typical Koch brother backed/created think tank, they didn't ignore certain historical facts to reach their conclusions, as this gentleman points out: Examining a time-series from 1945 through 2014, I find no statistically significant correlation between annual inflation rates and the inflation-adjusted value of the minimum wage. From 1945 through 1965, the inflation rate in the U.S. fell dramatically from 8 percent per year to less than one percent a year, while the inflation-adjusted value of the minimum wage increased from approximately $4 an hour to nearly $11 an hour, in 2014 dollars. From the late-1960s through 1980, the value of the minimum wage steadily fell from nearly $11 an hour to less than $10 hour in 2014 dollars, while the inflation rate grew dramatically from less than five percent a year in the late-1960s to about 10 percent annually in 1980. From 1980 to 1990, both the inflation rate and the minimum wage value fell, and in the post-1990 period, the national inflation rate and value of the minimum wage have both fluctuated positively and negatively at times, but with no noticeable correlation between the two factors. http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04...tion-propaganda-debunking-minimum-wage-myths/

And if you've got the time, these guys REALLY get into it: http://www.nelp.org/content/uploads/2015/03/Consider-The-Source-Minimum-Wage.pdf
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Taichiliberal said:
The first 3 words of your little smoke cloud here is a dubious statement at best.

I didn't ask for your opinion, supposition or conjecture....I asked for some valid proof to support/prove the assertions of your like minded compadre. Clearly, you can't provide such...as this sad display of your ignorance of the history of the US labor movement regarding the minimum wage and working conditions shows. So if you can't/won't meet a simple burden of proof, I'm not going to waste time responding to you and will let you rant on.
Click to expand...

Well this isn't a court of law so the burden of proof you require is irrelevant to me. Look if you are incapable of negotiating a wage you think is reasonable that is on you.
 
Leonthecat said:
How could you possibly know how many people didn't need food assistance because of a wage increase?
You are talking out of your rear vent
Click to expand...

Look at the data provided by the federal government, especially, the Census Bureau.

You're probably to lame to do that.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Let me deconstruct your yet another one of your attempts to validate your assertion:

1. You were 41 and with a bachelors degree when you went back to school....you weren't a college kid and you had 20 years to in the job market to build a life and some savings.
Click to expand...

I had no savings.

I was a broke part-time college student working on a 2nd Bachelor's Degree (Chemical Engineering), before I went to the UK in 1998 to work as a consultant on a documentary film, before going with a Channel 4 film crew to Serbia, during the period of NATO air strikes in 1999. After a few months in Serbia I left and went to Romania and lived from 1999 to 2001 and didn't work during that time. Then I returned....broke...to the US to go to back to school.


Taichiliberal said:
2. You made a CHOICE to go back...meaning that you already had a life of financially supporting yourself as an adult with no outstanding college debt.
Click to expand...

So?

I was starting over just like everybody else. I rented a room in a house with mostly foreign students. I had no car payment, no car -- so no insurance -- and I wasn't dumb enough to pay $600 for an iPhone. I didn't waste money on frivolous things like the latest fashions, so no, I didn't have $200 Nike shoes, either.


Taichiliberal said:
3. You received $12 grand as a "TA" (whatever that is)....
Click to expand...

TA is a Teaching Assistant. You grade papers mostly and teach a few classes when the professor is away doing professor things.


Taichiliberal said:
...that was in addition to whatever cash you saved up over the years to put to your endeavor, because you sure as hell didn't just come off the street flat broke.
Click to expand...

But, I did come off the street flat broke.

Taichiliberal said:
You got your masters, then got a deal teaching for tuition.
Click to expand...

So, I was one of the fortunate few who had an high enough GPA to qualify for a cushy TA program to get my Master's. It's not my fault other students didn't study hard enough. Getting a stipend meant I only had to work part-time at a minimum wage job, instead of full-time. It's real hard, but not impossible, to find part-time jobs that let you work around your classes.


Taichiliberal said:
4. No one is faulting your drive and success...but I am pointing out the sheer stupidity of comparing your situation to the everyday college kid, who at 18 to 21 sure as hell doesn't have your resources, experience and is laden with debt just to get a BA. So your bitching about the minimum wage is just that...bitching. No one forced you to take the path you took, but jealousy that you missed out on a minimum wage hike is just childish.
Click to expand...

There's nothing stupid about it. The only difference between those kids and I was that I worked and they didn't. They voluntarily choose to saddle themselves with Student Loan Debt, instead of going to school part-time and working part-time or full-time to pay for their education. They could have gone to a less expensive junior college then transferred to a State or private school.

I attended the University of Cincinnati instead of the more expensive Miami University or a private college like Xavier University.

You can see the fee schedule here (for 2003)

https://www.uc.edu/content/dam/uc/bursar/docs/Fee_Schedule_03-04.pdf

Now, I'm semi-retired, consulting part-time and spending the rest of my time in leisurely pursuits.




Taichiliberal said:
True, but unlike the typical Koch brother backed/created think tank, they didn't ignore certain historical facts to reach their conclusions, as this gentleman points out: Examining a time-series from 1945 through 2014, I find no statistically significant correlation between annual inflation rates and the inflation-adjusted value of the minimum wage.
Click to expand...

The flaw in his methodology, is that he isn't using the nominal value for minimum wage.
 
I Love America said:
Well this isn't a court of law so the burden of proof you require is irrelevant to me. Look if you are incapable of negotiating a wage you think is reasonable that is on you.
Click to expand...

The whole point of this thread is about the FACT that the vast majority of folk on minimum wage cannot live within the COLA, and they are NOT privy to negotiation or relocation or constant job changing. You have to be employed for a period of time before asking for a raise...and if you can't live on the salary you're getting, that wait (which does NOT guarantee a raise upon meeting with the manager) can seem or actually be a LONG time.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if the world functioned as you do here, NOTHING would get done or resolved. To put it bluntly, any clown can have an opinion and trumpet it as if it's bonafide fact and reality. PROVING it is whole other smoke....and YOU fail to prove what you say beyond opinion, supposition and conjecture. So it seems you've got NOTHING in response to simple challenge except to ignore it and move the goal post/dodge to another question. A pathetic tactic on your part.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top