The Language of God

Whomever said:
I hope that if a supreme being did create the universe that we are not the most intelligent beings in it.
It would not seem to me to be a very supreme being if we are it's crowning achievement in the creation of life forms.

Ahh but the blissfully ignorant arrogance of the human species.
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We are not the crowning achievement, but merely the favored child, because for all our stupidity and bad conduct, we are capable of returning its love.

The crowning achievement would be the cosmology itself. Saturn's rings, blue stars, full moons, the ocean tides of Earth, etc. We are but the experiment.
 
Threedee said:
We are not the crowning achievement, but merely the favored child, because for all our stupidity and bad conduct, we are capable of returning its love.

The crowning achievement would be the cosmology itself. Saturn's rings, blue stars, full moons, the ocean tides of Earth, etc. We are but the experiment.
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Using the big bang idea; what if life appeared first, closer to the where the big band originated and at various stages as the Universe expanded??
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Using the big bang idea; what if life appeared first, closer to the where the big band originated and at various stages as the Universe expanded??
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This could be a logical assumption, but who knows? And by not knowing we prove that a supreme being created it. According to Dixie logic that is ;)
 
Threedee said:
I'm not sure, as I'm waiting for the Big Bang theory to actually get proven.
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Yes there is that.
Many did not want to wait for the earth to be proven round, that germs and such cause disease, etc.

Waiting for the big bang theory to be proven is irrelevant.
You either have an open mind or you don't.
 
Seriously. Your entire argument is "the universe must have a purpose because I say so."

There doesn't have to be a why. That's the bit that you struggle with so much and it betrays your limited intellect.

It's like asking "why did that baby have to die?" The answer of course is "why not?" The universe is totally indifferent. Even asking the question "Why does the universe exist" is us projecting our own psychology on the universe which has none.
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Think for a moment about what "logic" is, define it in your mind. Do you understand, logic is the principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study? When you apply these principles to the question of "WHY" the universe was created, the principles of logic dictate there must be reason. The antithesis, is to believe all of the known wonders of our universe, and all of what we understand about physics and chemistry, all of the fascinating phenomenon which enables life to flourish in abundance, all the beauty and splendor, is meaningless and without reason. Does that sound logical to you? It doesn't sound logical to me at all.

In every aspect we humans apply logic, we can find reason... cause and effect... meaning and purpose. Yet, with the question of "WHY" the universe was created, we are supposed to assume logic doesn't have anything to do with it? Makes no sense. It is logical to assume there is a reason and purpose, and we simply do not understand or comprehend it.
 
ib1yysguy said:
Translation: "I don't get it, must be magic!"
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Nope... More like: I don't get it, and I'm not going to be so bold and arrogant as to pretend I do.

I don't think it's "magic" at all. I think it is reasonable to consider the possibility that something set our universe into motion... caused the big bang... filled our planet (at least) with the perfect environment and elements to form life and the billions of various forms of interdependent life systems... I mean, come on... can you explain WHY?

Yeah, okay... let's assume that all life is the product of pure evolution, it just managed to take off here and grow into what we have today.... still man... WHY? If you apply simple logic, you have to conclude, there must be reason. Either we know and understand that reason, or we admit we don't know or understand. I admit I don't know or understand, but it is through spirituality that I get to explore the possibilities. I don't think Science can ever answer the question of WHY the universe came to be, or WHY we are here. They can theorize and pontificate on how we got here... what happened to bring us here... but the WHY part, science simply can't explore.

Let's get a little deeper. I am not saying that Human Spirituality can provide us with all the answers either. Perhaps there are other levels of conscious awareness, that we aren't aware of? Perhaps some other civilization in our galaxy has better insight into the "why" questions? Maybe there is no God, maybe there is something we can't really wrap our minds around? There are all kinds of possibilities, other than the illogical and somewhat dismal conclusion that we simply ARE.... just because!
 
For the last time, THERE DOESN'T NEED TO BE A WHY. Everything you keep saying relies on the bogus assumption that there HAS to be a reason for the universe. All you keep saying, in increasingly vapid and uninteresting ways, is that logic says there must be a reason. Purpose isn't necessary. You want there to be purpose, but that is just wishful thinking taking control of your higher faculties rather than reason.
 
ib1yysguy said:
For the last time, THERE DOESN'T NEED TO BE A WHY. Everything you keep saying relies on the bogus assumption that there HAS to be a reason for the universe. All you keep saying, in increasingly vapid and uninteresting ways, is that logic says there must be a reason. Purpose isn't necessary. You want there to be purpose, but that is just wishful thinking taking control of your higher faculties rather than reason.
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LOL... Yes, if we apply LOGIC (principles of reason), there certainly does have to be a REASON why. If you want to be ILLOGICAL, you will conclude there is no reason, and everything we know and understand in the universe is without meaning and purpose.

There doesn't need to be a WHY if you choose to take an illogical path, and assume all the magnificent universe is meaningless...void of reason. That's not my choice, I didn't choose that path. My mind is still open to all possibility. Yours is closed, you have made your mind up already, and it can't be changed. This is why you have the viewpoint of logic that you do, as it applies to our universe.

If we observe a salmon swimming upstream, logic tells us, there must be a reason. We then explore the possibilities. Eventually we find a reason why. We follow the path of logic to find out why... we don't draw conclusions along the way and say... well, the salmon like to swim, and that's it... and we don't make the absurd claim that salmon just swam upstream because of random chance... just because... Nope... we keep observing the salmon, we keep studying what they are doing, and we discover an answer... logic leads us to the answer as to why, but logic always dictated there must be a reason.

Presently, scientists are observing black holes. Logic tells us, there is such a phenomenon, because we're observing it. We can't explain it, black holes seem to defy our understanding of physics, and technically shouldn't exist... but they do... we see them. So, should we use YOUR logic and just conclude the black holes are meaningless and without reason? Or should we continue to explore the possibilities, keep asking questions about why they exist, what are they...where do they lead?

Most everywhere we apply logic principles, we eventually find reason and purpose. I can't think of many examples where we haven't. What caused the Big Bang? Can you answer that? What compounded all of the necessary elements for life in that first 'anti-atom' or whatever exploded into our universe? Got an answer to that one? Didn't think so!
 
Fucking retarded.

No, I can't answer what started the big bang but some astrophysicists like stephen hawking have a pretty darn good idea. And you know what? The math works without the element of purpose. Purpose isn't necessary for the beginning of the universe to take place. The math proves it.

And there's nothing in physics that says black holes "shouldn't technically exist." The math necessitates them. What's the purpose of a black hole? What is it made to accomplish? There is no practical purpose. They are perfectly capable of existing and coming into existence through the conglomeration of huge quantities of mass without heaving an end goal.

Seriously, if you think physicists have absolutely no idea how the big bang happened you are more ignorant than I thought. Also, how retarded is it to ask someone you know to be a journalist about complex physics that only the most accomplished doctors in the science have even a hope of understanding? I'll tell you why: because it's a ploy and a very poor debating tactic. It's not only a very childish attempt to make a weak argument, but its use is in fact a very good indicator of the non-existence of the argument.

You have made no logical formulation outlining the necessity of purpose. It cannot be done because there is no purpose, therefore proving that there has to be one is an impossible task that you're welcome to continue trying to prove.
 
So Dixie, your argument is essentially that the universe must have purpose because the universe has purpose? Thankyou. That is all.

*Stolen from IB1
 
Excerpt from mine and IB1's conversation:


(3:29:56 AM) IB1: a wiki hole?
(3:30:03 AM) IB1: from which there is no escape?
(3:30:10 AM) IB1: dixie said those technically aren't supposed to exist
(3:30:13 AM) Watermark: I skillfully just dodged it.
(3:30:15 AM) Watermark: Oh.
(3:30:17 AM) Watermark: What?
(3:30:23 AM) Watermark: Black holes?
(3:30:31 AM) IB1: seriously. he thinks black holes are a paradox of physical laws
(3:30:56 AM) Watermark: Dixie, Alabama's preeminent physiscist.
(3:31:06 AM) IB1: probably because he can't think of a purpose for them and since nothing can exist without purpose they must be a paradox
(3:31:19 AM) Watermark: We should bring him to talk with Steven Hawking and tell him about his revision of his theories.
(3:31:41 AM) IB1: that's very cruel because you know stephen hawking isn't capable of a facepalm
(3:31:50 AM) Watermark: LOL
(3:32:07 AM) Watermark: I'll install a facepalm attachement for him.
(3:32:19 AM) IB1: LOL i just imagined his chair saying "facepalm"
(3:32:42 AM) IB1: that would be epic
(3:32:45 AM) Watermark: LOL
(3:32:58 AM) IB1: with the inflection on the second word
(3:33:11 AM) IB1: the way that his speakjet is so famous for
(3:33:36 AM) Watermark: I have been completely ignoring the language of god thread.
(3:33:44 AM) Watermark: I seriously treat dixies threads as if they don't exist.
(3:33:50 AM) IB1: it's a waste of time. debating god with dixie is a useless effort
(3:33:55 AM) IB1: i dunno how i let myself get dragged in
(3:34:00 AM) IB1: it's textbook circular reasoning
(3:34:17 AM) IB1: there must be a purpose to the universe because the universe has purpose
(3:34:22 AM) Watermark: LOL
(3:35:19 AM) Watermark: I just posted that.
(3:35:30 AM) IB1: post the bit about facepalm
(3:35:32 AM) IB1: that was funny
 
Dixie said:
LOL... Yes, if we apply LOGIC (principles of reason), there certainly does have to be a REASON why. If you want to be ILLOGICAL, you will conclude there is no reason, and everything we know and understand in the universe is without meaning and purpose.

There doesn't need to be a WHY if you choose to take an illogical path, and assume all the magnificent universe is meaningless...void of reason. That's not my choice, I didn't choose that path. My mind is still open to all possibility. Yours is closed, you have made your mind up already, and it can't be changed. This is why you have the viewpoint of logic that you do, as it applies to our universe.

If we observe a salmon swimming upstream, logic tells us, there must be a reason. We then explore the possibilities. Eventually we find a reason why. We follow the path of logic to find out why... we don't draw conclusions along the way and say... well, the salmon like to swim, and that's it... and we don't make the absurd claim that salmon just swam upstream because of random chance... just because... Nope... we keep observing the salmon, we keep studying what they are doing, and we discover an answer... logic leads us to the answer as to why, but logic always dictated there must be a reason.

Presently, scientists are observing black holes. Logic tells us, there is such a phenomenon, because we're observing it. We can't explain it, black holes seem to defy our understanding of physics, and technically shouldn't exist... but they do... we see them. So, should we use YOUR logic and just conclude the black holes are meaningless and without reason? Or should we continue to explore the possibilities, keep asking questions about why they exist, what are they...where do they lead?

Most everywhere we apply logic principles, we eventually find reason and purpose. I can't think of many examples where we haven't. What caused the Big Bang? Can you answer that? What compounded all of the necessary elements for life in that first 'anti-atom' or whatever exploded into our universe? Got an answer to that one? Didn't think so!
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The laws of science provide plenty of answers to the "why" questions.

The big bang? It was caused by almost all of the matter in the universe collapsing into a massive ball creating an explosion. Gravitational pull brought it back from huge distances. The momentum of that explosion is still going on which is why things are expanding outward. When that momentum is expended the gravitation pull will begin pulling the matter back towards a central point to start it all over again.

Or at least thats the way it was explained to me.

Blackholes? The most current theory I have read is that they are collapsed stars with enough mass to effect everything around them including light. They collapsed down to a small size and have a huge gravitational pull.
 
What about the quack science known as Antrhopogenic Global Warming? Is that the language of god? OR is it the language of men, powerhungry men who seek control over every atom on earth?
 
WinterBorn said:
The laws of science provide plenty of answers to the "why" questions.

The big bang? It was caused by almost all of the matter in the universe collapsing into a massive ball creating an explosion. Gravitational pull brought it back from huge distances. The momentum of that explosion is still going on which is why things are expanding outward. When that momentum is expended the gravitation pull will begin pulling the matter back towards a central point to start it all over again.

Or at least thats the way it was explained to me.

Blackholes? The most current theory I have read is that they are collapsed stars with enough mass to effect everything around them including light. They collapsed down to a small size and have a huge gravitational pull.
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Congrats, you just explained WHAT black holes are, not WHY they are. You just told us HOW the universe started, not WHY. You don't know, ib1 doesn't know, Stephen Fucking Hawking doesn't know WHY! Math and science can't answer that question.
 
No, I can't answer what started the big bang but some astrophysicists like stephen hawking have a pretty darn good idea. And you know what? The math works without the element of purpose. Purpose isn't necessary for the beginning of the universe to take place. The math proves it.
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Nope. Stephen Hawking has no idea WHY the universe came to be. He can speculate on HOW it happened, what took place, etc., but he can't tell you WHY it happened. Math can help you measure what has happened since the Big Bang, but it is meaningless at proving what happened BEFORE the Big Bang, because we don't even know if mathematics applies. Remember, we are talking about the time BEFORE the universe, so the laws and physics of the universe may not yet exist, since there is no universe.

But Logic dictates something DID happen, we DO have a universe. And if we apply logic as we've observed it on this earth, applied to any number of things, we understand, if something happens, there is a reason. We may not understand the reason, we may not be able to answer WHY, but we know through logic, there must be a reason for every happening, it is that way with everything else we understand in our universe.

If a bowling ball falls on your foot... IS there a logical possibility the bowling ball just randomly picked the destination of your foot and landed there? Could you successfully argue that the bowling ball landed on your foot for no particular reason? Or would it be more logical to assume something caused the bowling ball to land on your foot, someone perhaps dropped it, maybe you dropped it, but some reason exists for WHY the bowling ball is on your foot? It is ILLOGICAL to believe there is no reason for the bowling ball landing on your foot, and that it just happened.

This is what you are trying to apply to the existence of the universe. You are trying to claim the Big Bang or whatever created the universe, did so without any reason whatsoever. Whenever we apply logic, we know that everything has a reason. So your belief defies logic as we understand it.
 
If Steve Hawkin does not understand why the universe exists then that settles it God must have made it.

"lmao:
 
Dixie said:
Nope. Stephen Hawking has no idea WHY the universe came to be. He can speculate on HOW it happened, what took place, etc., but he can't tell you WHY it happened. Math can help you measure what has happened since the Big Bang, but it is meaningless at proving what happened BEFORE the Big Bang, because we don't even know if mathematics applies. Remember, we are talking about the time BEFORE the universe, so the laws and physics of the universe may not yet exist, since there is no universe.

But Logic dictates something DID happen, we DO have a universe. And if we apply logic as we've observed it on this earth, applied to any number of things, we understand, if something happens, there is a reason. We may not understand the reason, we may not be able to answer WHY, but we know through logic, there must be a reason for every happening, it is that way with everything else we understand in our universe.

If a bowling ball falls on your foot... IS there a logical possibility the bowling ball just randomly picked the destination of your foot and landed there? Could you successfully argue that the bowling ball landed on your foot for no particular reason? Or would it be more logical to assume something caused the bowling ball to land on your foot, someone perhaps dropped it, maybe you dropped it, but some reason exists for WHY the bowling ball is on your foot? It is ILLOGICAL to believe there is no reason for the bowling ball landing on your foot, and that it just happened.

This is what you are trying to apply to the existence of the universe. You are trying to claim the Big Bang or whatever created the universe, did so without any reason whatsoever. Whenever we apply logic, we know that everything has a reason. So your belief defies logic as we understand it.
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All you're doing is trading the Big Bang w/ God.

You can say that for something like the Big Bang to happen, there HAD to be something to instigate it. It makes no logical sense for there not to be.

By inserting God, you've assiged that to an omniscient, all-powerful being, whose existence is the same as the Big Bang. How did that entity come into being? The Big Bang needs something, but God always just WAS and is?
 
Whomever said:
If Steve Hawkin does not understand why the universe exists then that settles it God must have made it.

"lmao:
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No one has mentioned that possibility, but it does exist. For the record, there is a subtle difference between "why the universe exists" and "why the universe came to be" and I think we need to clarify, I am not stating that we can't answer the questions as to what happened to form our universe. I am sure science can explain the things which took place, to make the universe. What I am speaking of, is the reason and purpose. Why did it happen, not HOW did it happen!

I've not once mentioned God, nor have I drawn the conclusion that God must have made it. That is a false claim you are making, in order to make yourself look good and me look nutty, but it's completely dishonest and unfair. The only point I have raised is, logic dictates there must be a reason for why the universe came to be.

You see, I am not some Baptist hick who will waste time arguing that God created Adam and Eve and there was a baby Jesus... I don't know those things... have no idea whether they are true or not. This isn't about my personal religious faith, it's about common sense and logic. It is an erroneous assumption the universe exists without any purpose or reason, it defies everything we understand about logic.
 
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