The Inevitable EV Explosion

T. A. Gardner said:
I'm not. I don't want to live in a Leftist dictatorship of virtue.
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I do get it.

I don't love living with right wing goobers.
They give me a fucking rash, much like kids and fundamentalist religious people do.
Put the three together and it's a miracle that I'm not the latest mass shooter.

We should split up so everybody can be happy.
That's what I'd love to see--more people happy.

Nobody else seems to want that.
Everybody wants their own side to subjugate the other.

Want to know the real truth about America?
We don't seem to have very many good guys on either side.
 
Oscillator said:
What do you mean "can't improve enough"? What particular laws of physics or chemistry are threatened?
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Threatened? You are an imbecile. What's the most voltage you can get out of a battery cell? That's governed by chemistry which apparently you never took or learned. The charge rate is also dictated by chemistry. Physics governs how electric motors work and the weight of materials too.

Have you read "Making of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes? One of the best books I've ever read. Hands-down brilliant.
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I have a copy. So? The Manhattan Project was neither the largest, nor the most difficult program the US embarked on in WW 2. What's your point?

And you couldn't do it in an ICE vehicle prior in the early days of combustion engine cars.
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You could do it in one starting about 1920. It would take a bit longer as the vehicles were slower however.

Same in about 1918.
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From about the 20's on, gasoline was available along the route as there were numerous towns associated with mining operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_60
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_60_in_New_Mexico
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Threatened? You are an imbecile. What's the most voltage you can get out of a battery cell? That's governed by chemistry which apparently you never took or learned. The charge rate is also dictated by chemistry. Physics governs how electric motors work and the weight of materials too.
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So you're saying that because of this

1) my current EV with 300 miles range on a full charge isn't enough range for most applications
2) the charging technology can never improve (even going so far as the "swap out battery" concept)?
3) that the Lucid Air's 500 mile range on a full charge isn't even enough for your driving

Well, I guess I'm PWNED.

I have a copy. So? The Manhattan Project was neither the largest, nor the most difficult program the US embarked on in WW 2. What's your point?
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Just a side note. Given you were at White Sands I thought maybe it was history of weapons. Just being friendly. Sorry.

You could do it in one starting about 1920. It would take a bit longer as the vehicles were slower however.
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Maybe we'll be able to do it in a couple years with EV's. Hmmmm....it's almost like TECHNOLOGY ADVANCES IF YOU DON'T FIGHT IT EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

But what would I know? Just 30+ years as an R&D scientist. I'm sure you must know much more about how R&D works.



From about the 20's on, gasoline was available along the route as there were numerous towns associated with mining operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_60
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_60_in_New_Mexico[/QUOTE]
 
Joe Capitalist said:
Plug into the Future: The EV Trends to Look Out for in 2023

Electric vehicles are at the forefront of sustainable mobility, leading the automotive industry to undergo significant transformations. According to the International Energy Agency’s (IEA) latest Global EV Outlook, EV sales went from 1 to 10 million between 2017 and 2022, where it previously took the same amount of time to reach 1 million between 2012 and 2017. Last year alone, electric car sales increased by 55% compared to 2021.

China, Europe and the USA were the top three EV markets and accounted for 95% of global EV sales in 2022. Three emerging markets also stood out: India, Indonesia and Thailand, where EV sales more than tripled compared to the previous year.

iea-graph.png


Soaring opportunities for commercial electric vehicles

Sales of electric light commercial vehicles such as vans have surged by 90% in the past year. Electric heavy-duty vehicle sales have gone up by 45% between 2021 and 2022. Zero-emission buses now represent 4.5% of global bus sales and the IEA highlights that electric bus sales are much higher in countries that have prioritized greener alternatives for public transport: in Finland, they represent 65% of the country’s total bus sales.

Opportunities for electric heavy-duty vehicle development should flourish in the coming years: more than 200 new models entered the market in 2022 and 27 countries have pledged to reach 100% electric bus and truck sales by 2040.

Charging and fleet-as-a-service for electric trucks

Manufacturers can broaden their prospects by exploring the development of charging and battery-swapping stations for trucks that travel longer distances. The IEA draws attention to the benefits of battery-as-a-service for heavy-duty vehicles: purchasing trucks and batteries separately and leasing the battery to vehicle owners reduces costs as well as extends battery life and performance by eliminating the need for ultra-fast charging. This also saves time for drivers who can exchange depleted batteries at dedicated battery-swapping stations in a few minutes instead of waiting for them to charge.
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As soon as nuclear fusion vs. fission is perfected we'll have a perpetual source of clean energy. Unfortunately, it looks like we're a couple of decades out. We really need to get away from under OPEC's thumb.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Threatened? You are an imbecile. What's the most voltage you can get out of a battery cell? That's governed by chemistry which apparently you never took or learned. The charge rate is also dictated by chemistry. Physics governs how electric motors work and the weight of materials too.



I have a copy. So? The Manhattan Project was neither the largest, nor the most difficult program the US embarked on in WW 2. What's your point?



You could do it in one starting about 1920. It would take a bit longer as the vehicles were slower however.



From about the 20's on, gasoline was available along the route as there were numerous towns associated with mining operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_60
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_60_in_New_Mexico
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Explain yourself. "Most voltage you can get out of a battery"? You realize battery technology is still evolving right? If you had asked that before 1991 when the lithium ion battery became commercially available, you'd have gotten a different answer. That's part of the reason EVs hardly even existed in the past.
 
Oscillator said:
So you're saying that because of this

1) my current EV with 300 miles range on a full charge isn't enough range for most applications
2) the charging technology can never improve (even going so far as the "swap out battery" concept)?
3) that the Lucid Air's 500 mile range on a full charge isn't even enough for your driving

Well, I guess I'm PWNED.
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1) 300 miles is fine if you live all the time in an urban area. It isn't if you live or go out in the sticks. That's the rub here. The environmentalist Left wants you to be in an EV regardless, and they almost entirely live in urban areas with no clue about living 'off the grid.'

2) Charging tech can only go so far. Charging a battery produces heat and the rate of the chemical reaction has serious limits. Swapping batteries isn't going to work for a number of reasons including, sheer weight and size, differing types necessary, and issues with battery life.

3. My last leg of the drive I did almost 400 miles straight without stopping and it was mostly on semi-mountainous terrain with lots of hills and climbing.

Just a side note. Given you were at White Sands I thought maybe it was history of weapons. Just being friendly. Sorry.
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NP. It's a history of the early development of surface-to-air missiles from 1935 to 1955. Interesting asides from it include that this was a major reason we have the computer technology we have today...

Maybe we'll be able to do it in a couple years with EV's. Hmmmm....it's almost like TECHNOLOGY ADVANCES IF YOU DON'T FIGHT IT EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

But what would I know? Just 30+ years as an R&D scientist. I'm sure you must know much more about how R&D works.
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Battery technology is largely a dead end today. You can make marginal improvements, but there isn't anything revolutionary in the works because of the chemistry involved. Fuel cells are likely the next big thing. A portable fuel like hydrogen or anhydrous ammonia is very doable, except the same environmental retards would scream about the use of natural gas to make it. For example, you can run an ICE engine on anhydrous ammonia. In Brussels in WW 2, that's what the public transit system went to because the Germans wouldn't give Belgium gasoline. They simply tuned the bus engines to run on ammonia.

I'm against the EV push--note that push--by government. It's perfectly fine if EV's were simply competing in the market, but they're not. Government--LEFTIST government like in California--are pushing out all competition in favor of EV's with no alternatives. They are going to make everyone use one like it or not. That will be a disaster, it always is when a small group thinks they know best for everyone. But that's how the Left rolls and history shows it always ends up in disaster.
 
Mr.Badguy said:
Explain yourself. "Most voltage you can get out of a battery"? You realize battery technology is still evolving right? If you had asked that before 1991 when the lithium ion battery became commercially available, you'd have gotten a different answer. That's part of the reason EVs hardly even existed in the past.
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Chemistry is not. Look at a periodic table. The most voltage you can get out of a single battery cell, regardless of size, is about 3.5 volts DC. That's it. If you want higher voltages, you have to link cells in series to get it. The size of the cell determines the ampacity of it. That is bigger cells will run longer before discharging. You can also link cells in parallel to get more ampacity. That's how batteries work. That isn't going to change.

Lithium ion batteries are just a battery. They work as I just described. There's nothing different about them.

EV's in 1912 often used Edison's improved nickel - iron batteries. At the time these were the pinnacle of battery tech. They are still used today too. Cell voltage is 1.2 volts. But electric cars were just not competitive then and wouldn't be now for most of the market with the exception of government intervention.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Chemistry is not. Look at a periodic table. The most voltage you can get out of a single battery cell, regardless of size, is about 3.5 volts DC. That's it. If you want higher voltages, you have to link cells in series to get it. The size of the cell determines the ampacity of it. That is bigger cells will run longer before discharging. You can also link cells in parallel to get more ampacity. That's how batteries work. That isn't going to change.

Lithium ion batteries are just a battery. They work as I just described. There's nothing different about them.

EV's in 1912 often used Edison's improved nickel - iron batteries. At the time these were the pinnacle of battery tech. They are still used today too. Cell voltage is 1.2 volts. But electric cars were just not competitive then and wouldn't be now for most of the market with the exception of government intervention.
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Still though complaining about the limitations of single cells is pointless. That's like asking why should we even use car batteries to get 12V if we have to make them out of 6 cells. Single cell voltage is just one aspect of an EVs battery technology. For instance, many manufacturers are moving to 800V systems to reduce current load and reduce heat and make charging even faster. That's what I mean when I say battery technology is evolving. New configurations, more cells, and currently there's work being done to bring Sodium ion batteries into the realm of feasibility for EVs which would greatly reduce fire risks, costs, and would be much easier to source than lithium.

If you break open your phone battery, you'll find multiple cells. Guess that technology just isn't there yet, huh?
 
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Mr.Badguy said:
Still though complaining about the limitations of single cells is pointless. That's like asking why should we even use car batteries to get 12V if we have to make them out of 6 cells. Single cell voltage is just one aspect of an EVs battery technology. For instance, many manufacturers are moving to 800V systems to reduce current and make charging even faster.

If you break open your phone battery, you'll find multiple cells. Guess that technology just isn't there yet, huh?
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You are missing the point entirely. Battery technology hasn't had any really serious, major improvements made in it in decades. Incremental changes are all that's left. Charging isn't a matter of voltage, it's a matter of wattage. The rate at which you dump power into a battery (watts) is what's important. The faster you do it the more likely you damage the battery in the process. Also, the faster you do it the more heat gets generated and that too is a problem.

What I'm getting at is you aren't going to get say 30 volts out of a single battery cell. That in turn means cell size and number will dictate voltage and ampacity. More cells = more complexity. More ampacity = cooling issues.
 
Its inevitable because our overlords have decided and they are not going to allow us to choose for ourselves.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
We don't know for sure.
The real difference is that you're rooting for it to not happen,
whereas I'm content to just see what happens during the time I have left.
You see, I don't really care about petrol or battery.
They already lost me with the tall head restraints that don't let me wear a hat.
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Technology can't improve, my ass:

In a groundbreaking step toward a more sustainable future, Tesla plans to significantly cut its use of rare Earth metals in upcoming electric vehicle (EV) production.*

For years, the EV industry has used rare earth elements in its products. Although most EV batteries do not use rare earth metals, the elements are often used in EVs’ specialized motors or other parts — a truth that carries substantial economic and environmental consequences.*
Now Tesla, the leader in EV production, has announced a significant pivot in their approach that’s set to bring a wave of positive change.
Tesla recently announced its goal to reduce the use of silicon carbide by 75%, significantly reducing its use of rare earth metals. Instead, it will use a permanent magnet motor, allowing them to scale its vehicle production more efficiently.*
Rare earth metals are integral to the production of EVs, particularly in the construction of high-performing motors.*
However, mining and refining these metals often produce substantial carbon emissions and environmental degradation. By reducing its reliance on these materials, Tesla is not only promoting a cleaner production process but also setting an industry standard that other EV manufacturers can aspire to follow.
“Silicon carbide is an amazing semiconductor, but it’s also expensive and it’s really hard to scale. So using less of it is a big win for us,” Colin Campbell, Tesla’s VP for powertrain engineering, reportedly said at Tesla’s Investor Day event on March 1.*
Currently, chips made from silicon carbide transistors are widely used in EVs. According to the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE), they can withstand more heat, have a longer life, and are more energy-efficient than semiconductors made of silicon power transistors.*
With its groundbreaking step, Tesla reasserts that sustainable practices and economic growth can coexist.*
 
Joe Capitalist said:
Technology can't improve, my ass:

In a groundbreaking step toward a more sustainable future, Tesla plans to significantly cut its use of rare Earth metals in upcoming electric vehicle (EV) production.*

For years, the EV industry has used rare earth elements in its products. Although most EV batteries do not use rare earth metals, the elements are often used in EVs’ specialized motors or other parts — a truth that carries substantial economic and environmental consequences.*
Now Tesla, the leader in EV production, has announced a significant pivot in their approach that’s set to bring a wave of positive change.
Tesla recently announced its goal to reduce the use of silicon carbide by 75%, significantly reducing its use of rare earth metals. Instead, it will use a permanent magnet motor, allowing them to scale its vehicle production more efficiently.*
Rare earth metals are integral to the production of EVs, particularly in the construction of high-performing motors.*
However, mining and refining these metals often produce substantial carbon emissions and environmental degradation. By reducing its reliance on these materials, Tesla is not only promoting a cleaner production process but also setting an industry standard that other EV manufacturers can aspire to follow.
“Silicon carbide is an amazing semiconductor, but it’s also expensive and it’s really hard to scale. So using less of it is a big win for us,” Colin Campbell, Tesla’s VP for powertrain engineering, reportedly said at Tesla’s Investor Day event on March 1.*
Currently, chips made from silicon carbide transistors are widely used in EVs. According to the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE), they can withstand more heat, have a longer life, and are more energy-efficient than semiconductors made of silicon power transistors.*
With its groundbreaking step, Tesla reasserts that sustainable practices and economic growth can coexist.*
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Tell me what advantages I, me the user of the vehicle, would have as an owner of an EV over an ICE.
 
Mr.Badguy said:
They're already gaining traction. That's the free market at work. Sorry you're so butthurt about it.
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TA Gardner should change his name to EV Butthurt. He continues to believe that the only reason people are buying EVs is because of government incentives (not mandates). He refuses to see the EV sales data over the last few years. Kinda like he refuses to see the evidence that Biden won the 2020 election.
You just can't reason with these MAGA morons. They have a mental block against truth and logic.
 
Toyota has made a breakthrough in its development of solid-state batteries.

The Japanese car maker reckons it won’t need to compromise on shorter battery life – a typical trade-off – when it puts its new solid-state batteries into mass production in 2027.
As the manufacturer says, "solid-state batteries have long been regarded as a potential game-changer for battery electric vehicles"*(BEVs). Currently, a liquid electrolyte carries the electrons from the cathode to the anode and vice versa. While Toyota doesn’t specify the material they use, generally "solid-state" means the electrolyte is gel-like.
Typically, a gel-based electrolyte is considered safer (more stable). Not only that; the gel enables ions to move more quickly. A solid electrolyte also has a better tolerance for higher voltages and temperatures. That’s great news for rapid charging, which Toyota calculates will be less than 10 minutes for a 10-80 per cent state of charge (SoC) using these new solid-state batteries.
Other advantages include a 20 per cent increase in driving range (roughly 620 miles) and better durability. Originally planning on sticking them in hybrids first – where the fuel engine could act as a safety net in the event the battery fails – Toyota says it's confident enough to focus on getting these new solid-state cells into BEVs from the get-go.
The brand’s not only made in-roads with solid-state technology. It also outlined a new range of advanced liquid-electrolyte batteries. With these, it’s been able to improve performance, range and fast charging – as well as lower weight and improve aerodynamics. Named Performance, Popularisation and High-performance, all Toyota's new batteries use different chemistries, but the latter two use a new bipolar battery structure (see pictured) to move the needle on all the relevant metrics.
To give context, it reckons the lithium-ion based Performance battery will reduce production costs of the all-electric bZ4x SUV by 20 per cent, increase range to 497 miles (up from 317) and reduce the rapid charging time to less than 20 minutes.

MAGA soils diapers
 
Joe Capitalist said:
Toyota has made a breakthrough in its development of solid-state batteries.

The Japanese car maker reckons it won’t need to compromise on shorter battery life – a typical trade-off – when it puts its new solid-state batteries into mass production in 2027.
As the manufacturer says, "solid-state batteries have long been regarded as a potential game-changer for battery electric vehicles"*(BEVs). Currently, a liquid electrolyte carries the electrons from the cathode to the anode and vice versa. While Toyota doesn’t specify the material they use, generally "solid-state" means the electrolyte is gel-like.
Typically, a gel-based electrolyte is considered safer (more stable). Not only that; the gel enables ions to move more quickly. A solid electrolyte also has a better tolerance for higher voltages and temperatures. That’s great news for rapid charging, which Toyota calculates will be less than 10 minutes for a 10-80 per cent state of charge (SoC) using these new solid-state batteries.
Other advantages include a 20 per cent increase in driving range (roughly 620 miles) and better durability. Originally planning on sticking them in hybrids first – where the fuel engine could act as a safety net in the event the battery fails – Toyota says it's confident enough to focus on getting these new solid-state cells into BEVs from the get-go.
The brand’s not only made in-roads with solid-state technology. It also outlined a new range of advanced liquid-electrolyte batteries. With these, it’s been able to improve performance, range and fast charging – as well as lower weight and improve aerodynamics. Named Performance, Popularisation and High-performance, all Toyota's new batteries use different chemistries, but the latter two use a new bipolar battery structure (see pictured) to move the needle on all the relevant metrics.
To give context, it reckons the lithium-ion based Performance battery will reduce production costs of the all-electric bZ4x SUV by 20 per cent, increase range to 497 miles (up from 317) and reduce the rapid charging time to less than 20 minutes.

MAGA soils diapers
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Joey's wet panties helped put out fire.

Tesla top-of-range car caught fire while owner was driving, lawyer says
 
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