The Confederate origins of Memorial Day

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yes, until selling southern picked cotton at a bargain to the Europeans became convenient as a way to bankrupt the south who relied on that income.

The South had no choice but to stand up to the thievery of financing the industrial North at the expense of Southern labor.
Cotton was the cash crop, Ending slavery basically meant the south now had to pay their help without raising the cost of producing the crop.
Southern farmers were all for freeing the slaves and tried to convey to Lincoln that now they would be employing them, and thereby have to raise the price for the crop.
And incidently not only would they now be paying the help but the help will now need to pay for their food and housing. Most slaves knew nothing but working the farms.
They would now need education, and every other right of free men, and these things need financing.

The North was so engulfed in their carpetbagging ways, the message was basically just shut up, keep picking cotton and keep sending us the profits from the European cotton markets. And by the way you no longer own your help, figure it out.
Which set up an unsustainable situation, so the Southern states basically said we are leaving the union and forming our own. Which will include us dealing directly with Europe in the cotton market. And that sucession from the Union including freeing the slaves.

So to say the North was simply fighting for freeing the slaves, and the South was simply fighting to keep slavery alive is just not understanding what really happened.

Everything you just said was that the south was fighting to keep slavery alive.

How can you not see that?

 

[Cancel 2018.2]

Who is censoring the truth?

Traitors don't deserve monuments. Evil doesn't deserve a monument.

Future generations of Americans will know the south and confederacy for the evil they were .. no differently than Hitler and the Nazis.

At least Germany had the decency and humanity to rid itself of the symbols and stench of its evil past .. we're just catching up.

You do realize you sound just like ISIS, with regards to monuments etc.

 

[Cancel 2018.2]

Thank goodness I live in Hawaii and don't have to discuss this issue with anyone here.

 

[Cypress]

There were few if any Wehrmact Nazi's..
The average soldier in Germany did their duty because they had to, or for nationalism.

Which is about the same for both the Union and Confederate soldiers.

Fuck off. You are obviously unaware of how the Wehrmact treated the people of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. Not to mention how they treated soviet prisoners - worse than dogs. What they did at the siege of Lenningrad. The suffering inflicted on the citizens of the Soviet Union by the Wehrmacht is almost unparalled in modern human history. You really shouldn't speak about topics you know nothing about.

The myth of a clean Wehrmacht that was simply fighting for duty and honor, is a legend with no basis in fact. Wehrmacht soliders were required to swear an Oath to Hitler. Not to Germany. To Hitler. Do you think destroying and occupying most of Europe was just innocent German patriotism?

 

[anatta]

Fuck off. You are obviously unaware of how the Wehrmact treated the people of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. Not to mention how they treated soviet prisoners. What they did at the siege of Lenningrad. You really shouldn't speak about topics you know nothing about.

The myth of a clean Wehrmacht that was simply fighting for duty and honor, is a legend with no basis in fact. Wehrmacht soliders were required to swear an Oath to Hitler. Not to Germany. To Hitler. Do you think destroying and occupying most of Europe as just innocent German patriotism?

lol..you think I do not know WWII history?
are you enlightening me like you did on the Euromaiden and US meddling thru U.S.A.I.D.

are you aware of the callous disregard by V. Nuland's "fuck the EU" -whereby she dismissed EU concerns because they failed to join the US in threatening sanctions against Ukraine’s leaders ?

Please don't tell me what I should know about history, where you have often shown utter ignorance of the same.
++
I don't know the specifics of the swearing to Hitler..but thinking it out the alternative the was no doubt prosecution and possibly death.

It's well known the ordinary German soldier did not fight for Nazi ideals. They fought for Germany.
Same as the Union and Confederate soldiers did.

 

[blackascoal]

because you keep responding to my posts ? lol.
I appreciate your perspective brother, but I'm not going to support revisionism or whitewashing Confederate
( and for that matter Union) soldiers battles and bravery..afterall the point i keep making and you just rant over about is the soldiers themselves were honorable, and deserve respect and memoriam.

The soldiers were fucking demons who supported nothing short of pure evil. There's not one goddamn thing remotely 'honorable' about confederate soldiers .. and if this was an army of black soldiers fighting for ungodly evil and atrocity committed on white people you'd feel the same way that I do. What is it about me being black is confusing to you?

In all your research you've seemed to have skipped the part about what slaves had to endure.

I do not care about "feelings". There is way too much PC "feelings" that already distort history.

What you're talking about is YOUR perspective .. which is quite obviously out of step with today's America. Start from here .. life is not static, it is dynamic .. ever-evolving. IN TODAY'S AMERICA, white America is finally coming to grips with the horror's of slavery. Slavery didn't look like Root's. The BBC presented a far more realistic view of life as a slave .. including taking a hammer and knocking the teeth out of captured slaves who wouldn't eat so they could force feed him. They raped little girls as young as 6 years old.

Tell me again about how fucking 'honorable' soldiers were who defended that.

I rely on facts. On the contemporary words of Abe Lincoln, and the factual demonstration of brotherhood photos
of the anniversary of Gettysburg battles.

You rely on your perspective based on things other than facts. Not an attack brother .. that's just who you are.

corporations are spineless weasels - do we turn over our historical perspectives to corps?

Let me guess .. corporations or pure evil? I choose corporations .. who by the way make these demands because standing anywhere near what can easily be perceived as racism would be like cutting their own throats because the American people will respond. A reflection of the society you live in today.

Racism has a stench that leaves openly racist ignorant motherfuckers few places to go .. except in an anonymous costume on internet sites like this where everybody is a hero.

have you become that craven that you support a corptocratic history of the USA?

Can I jokingly suggest that your 'whiteness' is showing. :0) What in the world would make you believe that I would support any fucking thing about the confederacy and its participants? That's truly confusing. If I've ever given you the impression that I'm colorblind .. well, that's really confusing.

You are somehow blind to the fact that it is the history that you support that is false and biased.

oh please.
You supported a warmongering, big donor driven, serial liar who was instrumental in the destruction of Libya.

Sure did, and would do it a 1000 times when compared to the proven classless moron that you support. :0) You must be joking.

Aren't you the one with endless threads about all the fake news about Trump ties to Russia? If you still believe that with all the evidence now exposed .. then by that alone you prove my point.

At one time was important to you..

Still is .. going there in March. When are you going?

Going after my analysis because I support the Trump agenda of MAGA is not a good place for you to attack my ideas.

:0) It is the Holy Grail of Truth my brother. It does not require great intelligence nor analysis to recognize that Trump is a disaster and threat to this nation. Sorry, it just doesn't .. and the fact that you're still clinging to that classless idiot screams, 'Houston, we have a problem." If you can't figure this out, we have a problem.

Go ahead and attack them. That's what we do, but dragging the election into this smacks of desperation.

Uh, wrong. Supporting Trump puts everything you say in question. It puts every issue you support in question. I'm sure that's not how you see it, but you don't get to choose how others see you. My advice, don't care about it .. just be you.

nor do I much care about your "rat fuck" descriptions of honorable men.

Check the record .. I never asked you to care about what I think. I've said repeatedly that you can call them whatever you want .. why would I care. I'm not speaking for you, I'm speaking for me .. and the countless Americans who believe as I do and are responsible for tossing that confederate crap and the rat-fuck symbols in the garbage. Do you really think I care about you not agreeing? :0)

You haven't been paying attention.

To this day I slam Chinese hegemony and hypocrisy over Tibet, while they decry the "10 dash line" in the South China sea.
Rune once said I had some kind of power during the election. I am not so delusional that I think what you or I say has any real effect on the real world . Yet that's never stopped us from discussions before

If you were Chinese and you were slamming the oppression in Tibet, that would have an entirely different meaning than you being a white guy American.

Point being, when do you slam your own side in your own country?

 

[Airstrip One]

Just who is/are "they"? According to your logic or the lack thereof.....none of the history from the 1st revolutionary war of independence should be maintained because it was written due to "treason". The historical truth concludes only with one fact....the second revolution (i.e., the supposed civil war) was not engaged because of the institution of slavery as slavery existed due to the constitutional states bill of rights (the majority of the people wanted slavery to be legal). The war was never about slavery...it was about the federal government attempting to usurp the states bill of rights and its guarantees.

The Bill of Rights is for the people, not for the states. The reason why the war happened is that the CSA launched an attack on an American fort. If you truly loved America, you wouldn't compare treason to the Crown with treason to the Constitution. Doing so proves that you hate America.

In fact Slavery only became an issue when Abe Lincoln made it an issue when he ran for a second term. Given time....slavery would have ended due to the same reason it ended in the north....economic GREED. When the south became as advanced with the modern industrial technologies found in the north...slavery would have ceased to be an issue because anyone still accepting slavery as a means of economic prosperity would have been left behind by those who adapted to a changing mechanical and technical business environment.....hand labor would never have been able to produce the way machine labor can...anyone using such antiquated ideas about human labor would have soon gone the way of the dodo bird.

Are you saying that abolition is greedy?

The north all but destroyed the basic tenants of the States bill of Rights and the Constitution based upon the principal of Republican Representation as guaranteed in article four, section four clause one of the US CONSTITUTION.

Again, the states do not have any rights. Only people have rights, and only citizens enjoy the full protections of the Constitution.

Slavery would have ended when society evolved to accept the documented truth that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, just as it ended in England. The north dumped the constitution and forced its OPINION upon the entire United States of America. FASCISM personified.....they did it because they could, not because of a superior military or personal bravery, as the north suffered far greater loss of life than did the south....the north forced their lifestyle upon the south because they were RICHER and could afford to use human life like fodder as documented.

Not in the south. Ironically, its behavior proved to the world that its people are not equal - especially in character, honor, and dignity.

It makes me laugh to think just how many human lives were lost by the north because they used their troops like disposable pawns. To think that some today attempt to claim they were on the humanitarian side of that conflict. Its pure BS if human life is the measuring stick for humanitarianism. Just like the left claiming to be humanitarians when they kill millions of human babies in the womb each and every year......proving that human life is the furthest thing from their definition of Humanitarianism. They claim that unborn human lives are not worthy of the protection of their society.

Thank you, CSA, for attacking America, and starting a war, you worthless, goddamn, motherfucking, losers.

 

[blackascoal]

You do realize you sound just like ISIS, with regards to monuments etc.

If you believe that .. I have absolutely zero problems with what you believe .. especially given that what you believe will have absolutely zero effect on the outcomes.

Much of that shit is still going to come down.

Blame ISIS if it makes you feel better. :0)

 

[Cancel 2018.2]

If you believe that .. I have absolutely zero problems with what you believe .. especially given that what you believe will have absolutely zero effect on the outcomes.

Much of that shit is still going to come down.

Blame ISIS if it makes you feel better. :0)

I am not blaming ISIS you ignorant tool. I am expressly stating you hold their same beliefs with regards to monuments.

Nothing more.

 

[blackascoal]

For the least fault the slaves received the harshest punishment. In 1685 the Negro Code authorised whipping, and in 1702 one colonist, a Marquis, thought any punishment which demanded more than 100 blows of the whip was serious enough to be handed over to the authorities. … But the colonists paid no attention to these regulations and slaves were not unfrequently whipped to death…. The slaves received the whip with more certainty and regularity than they received their food.

It was the incentive to work and the guardian of discipline. But there was no ingenuity that fear or a depraved imagination could devise which was not employed to break their spirit and satisfy the lusts and resentment of their owners and guardians – irons on the hands and feet, blocks of wood that the slaves had to drag behind them wherever they went, the tin-plate mask designed to prevent the slaves eating the sugar-cane, the iron collar.

Whipping was interrupted in order to pass a piece of hot wood on the buttocks of the victim; salt, pepper, citron, cinder, aloes, and hot ashes were poured on the bleeding wounds.* Mutilations were common, limbs, ears, and sometimes the private parts, to deprive them of the pleasures which they could indulge in without expense. Their masters poured burning wax on their arms and hands and shoulders, emptied the boiling cane sugar over their heads, burned them alive, roasted them on slow fires, filled them with gunpowder and blew them up with a match; buried them up to the neck and smeared their heads with sugar that the flies might devour them; fastened them near to nests of ants or wasps; made them eat their excrement, drink their urine, and lick the saliva of other slaves. One colonist was known in his moments of anger to throw himself on his slaves and stick his teeth into their flesh.
--- C.L.R. James (Black Jacobins, pp. 12-13)

Please .. tell me again about how fucking 'honorable' the soldiers were who defended these inhuman atrocities?

 

[Cancel 2018.2]

The Bill of Rights is for the people, not for the states. The reason why the war happened is that the CSA launched an attack on an American fort. If you truly loved America, you wouldn't compare treason to the Crown with treason to the Constitution. Doing so proves that you hate America.



Are you saying that abolition is greedy?





Again, the states do not have any rights. Only people have rights, and only citizens enjoy the full protections of the Constitution.



Not in the south. Ironically, its behavior proved to the world that its people are not equal - especially in character, honor, and dignity.



Thank you, CSA, for attacking America, and starting a war, you worthless, goddamn, motherfucking, losers.

What is the 10th amendment for then?

 

[blackascoal]

I am not blaming ISIS you ignorant tool. I am expressly stating you hold their same beliefs with regards to monuments.

Nothing more.

Either way it makes no sense. One has nothing to do with the other .. you ignorant fool.

 

[anatta]

The soldiers were fucking demons who supported nothing short of pure evil. There's not one goddamn thing remotely 'honorable' about confederate soldiers .. and if this was an army of black soldiers fighting for ungodly evil and atrocity committed on white people you'd feel the same way that I do. What is it about me being black is confusing to you?

if you are going to engage me about the Confederacy -specifically the soldiers. then you need to do it on facts,and not your emotions because you are black. I get your feelings, but feelings as I have said before have no place in historical analysis.

In all your research you've seemed to have skipped the part about what slaves had to endure.

I've made it clear over and over that slavery was an abomination and should have no quarter.
The topic is NOT slavery -it's about removing statues of the Confederate soldiers. You have to think past your emotions here.

What you're talking about is YOUR perspective .. which is quite obviously out of step with today's America. Start from here .. life is not static, it is dynamic .. ever-evolving. IN TODAY'S AMERICA, white America is finally coming to grips with the horror's of slavery.

Slavery has been covered in history books and films like Ken Burns "the Civil War" -original sources-which is where i get my analysis..not from fictionalized account like "Roots"

Slavery didn't look like Root's. The BBC presented a far more realistic view of life as a slave .. including taking a hammer and knocking the teeth out of captured slaves who wouldn't eat so they could force feed him. They raped little girls as young as 6 years old.

Tell me again about how fucking 'honorable' soldiers were who defended that.

you simply cannot discriminate between the battlefields and the grotesque institution of slavery.
I realize this is personal for you, but you have to be able to segment these issues out,or your analysis is emotional driven, which by definition is not mental clarity.

You rely on your perspective based on things other than facts. Not an attack brother .. that's just who you are.

ROFL..I've shown you photos of men able to shake hands over the bloody battlefields they once fought over.
The same men who years ago were in mortal combat now recognize their common bonds of being soldiers.
If they can respect each other for who they are..why can't we?

Because we have become a society driven by feelings, instead of factual relationships.
That might be good enough for you, but it's against everything Buddha & Socrates taught..
look for the empirical - ignore the emotive when seeking truth

Let me guess .. corporations or pure evil? I choose corporations .. who by the way make these demands because standing anywhere near what can easily be perceived as racism would be like cutting their own throats because the American people will respond. A reflection of the society you live in today.

the other choice of course is looking to original sourcing.. forget your emotions, forget weasel corporations who bend to public ignorance..Have you ever watched Ken Burn's "The Civil War"

It's a human scale recitation of the war thru contemporary letters/photos/and battles.
You see the men for who they are, and you see they fight for the same things ordinary soldiers did throughout history.
Not "slavery" or a "Confederacy" . They fight for their brothers in arms and there homes/states

Racism has a stench that leaves openly racist ignorant motherfuckers few places to go .. except in an anonymous costume on internet sites like this where everybody is a hero.

...are you calling me a racist?

Can I jokingly suggest that your 'whiteness' is showing. :0) What in the world would make you believe that I would support any fucking thing about the confederacy and its participants? That's truly confusing. If I've ever given you the impression that I'm colorblind .. well, that's really confusing.

I do not care about whiteness or blackness when it comes to viewing history.
I only care that that prism is as close to the reality of that time.a true picture of contemporary events and persona

you are somehow blind to the fact that it is the history that you support that is false and biased.

ridiculous. I am not trying to censor or whitewash history.
I attempt to see things as they are and not how I think they should be. Or want them to be.
It's not me who wants to put living history into a stale museum

Sure did, and would do it a 1000 times when compared to the proven classless moron that you support. :0) You must be joking.

I do not think we should go there. we've had major bad fights over the election.
It's a sidebar that should not have been injected to this discussion. I hope you can see it serves no purpose here to continue that.

Aren't you the one with endless threads about all the fake news about Trump ties to Russia? If you still believe that with all the evidence now exposed .. then by that alone you prove my point.

your point is not specific, but if you want to go there..where is that infamous Russian Collusion? ROFL.
*I could say a few more nasty things here, but I won't- I prefer we remain civil,
because I respect you as much as i disagree with you*

:0) It is the Holy Grail of Truth my brother. It does not require great intelligence nor analysis to recognize that Trump is a disaster and threat to this nation. Sorry, it just doesn't .. and the fact that you're still clinging to that classless idiot screams, 'Houston, we have a problem." If you can't figure this out, we have a problem.

i'm not going there..i'll take you up issue by issue

Uh, wrong. Supporting Trump puts everything you say in question. It puts every issue you support in question. I'm sure that's not how you see it, but you don't get to choose how others see you. My advice, don't care about it .. just be you.

facile and without basis to fact. rejected.

Check the record .. I never asked you to care about what I think. I've said repeatedly that you can call them whatever you want .. why would I care. I'm not speaking for you, I'm speaking for me .. and the countless Americans who believe as I do and are responsible for tossing that confederate crap and the rat-fuck symbols in the garbage. Do you really think I care about you not agreeing? :0)

mindless lemming like behaviors by the ignorant masses is a behavior I choose not to join up with.

Saying "Confederate Crap"is your dismissal for all things associated with the south -including the soldiers/combatants.
Which is why I urge you to walk the battlefields as I have done , and "feel" (think deeply) about the event on that day.

If you were Chinese and you were slamming the oppression in Tibet, that would have an entirely different meaning than you being a white guy American.

ridiculous. One can understand without being contemporaneous. It's what all scholars do.

Point being, when do you slam your own side in your own country?

no clue what you are trying to say here.

 

[Cancel 2018.2]

Either way it makes no sense. One has nothing to do with the other .. you ignorant fool.

Sure it does. They want to blow up or tear down monuments they believe don't fit their faith. And so do you.

Why are you against the monuments? They are forever a remembrance of this country's history and to the racism of some of the monuments. I could say I talked with a black friend, but I find those kinds of arguments silly. To me, I would rather have the monuments stand so that all can remember and hopefully all can move on. The one's I don't approve of standing are the absolute racist people, but, they are not playing by that.

Like I said, I really have no dog in this fight, I just find this discussion interesting. If they are taken down, I could care less.

 

[Airstrip One]

What is the 10th amendment for then?

Re-read the 10th, and tell me when you come across any mention of rights.

 

[anatta]

I am not blaming ISIS you ignorant tool. I am expressly stating you hold their same beliefs with regards to monuments.

Nothing more.

well..Salafi Islam looks at anything that does not reinforce the constant mind's dwelling on Allah and only Allah as blasphemous .
They do routinely destroy monuments that are "heretical" , or 'non-Islamic' so in that sense
they are quite willing to destroy history. But i do not transfer that fanaticism to PC..at least not all of it.

 

[Airstrip One]

well..Salafi Islam looks at anything that does not reinforce the constant mind's dwelling on Allah and only Allah as blasphemous .
They do routinely destroy monuments that are "heretical" , or 'non-Islamic' so in that sense
they are quite willing to destroy history. But i do not transfer that fanaticism to PC..at least not all of it.

Do you transfer that fanaticism to supporting America?

 

[blackascoal]

Sure it does. They want to blow up or tear down monuments they believe don't fit their faith. And so do you.

What 'faith' would that be? Are the millions of Americans of all races and faiths who support the removal of confederate stench also of the same 'faith?'

Why are you against the monuments? They are forever a remembrance of this country's history and to the racism of some of the monuments. I could say I talked with a black friend, but I find those kinds of arguments silly. To me, I would rather have the monuments stand so that all can remember and hopefully all can move on. The one's I don't approve of standing are the absolute racist people, but, they are not playing by that.

Like I said, I really have no dog in this fight, I just find this discussion interesting. If they are taken down, I could care less.

It may have escaped you but I'm black. :0) Black people don't support anything about the confederacy, nor should we. Not sure how that escapes you. AND, America doesn't need monuments to traitors and evil to know history .. in fact, future generations will know history .. real history far better when monsters are not portrayed as heroes and 'honorable' men.

Drag them out of their graves and kill them again.

History, not His-story.

Truth is, this is already a dead issue. Why?

Because money speaks louder than anyone else in this country.

Southern cities removing Confederate flags to make tourists comfortable

Last week, Biloxi, Miss. became the latest Southern city to order the removal of a state flag containing the Confederate Army emblem from the city’s public properties.

According to the Sun Herald, 5.7 million people per year visit Biloxi, and city spokesman, Vincent Creel, said he supported the order and hopes it will convey a positive message to tourists. "We don't think we should give them [potential visitors] any reason to reconsider their decision to visit our community,"*he said.

Tourism to Mississippi’s gulf coast makes up one-third of the state’s tourism revenue. It's also a thriving, $1.6 billion dollar industry, according to the Biloxi Area Tourism Industry Report. Harrison County, which includes Biloxi, was specifically responsible for $77 million in 2010—30 percent of the state’s tourism capital investment.
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/...erate-flags-to-make-tourists-comfortable.html

 

[anatta]

^ the homogenization of history for increased tourist dollars!!

Now that's American as apple pie!.. ROFL

 

[Cancel 2018.2]

Re-read the 10th, and tell me when you come across any mention of rights.

You really think "powers" are not rights?