Suicide

[Jack]

American Worker Drones are losing their jobs to Third World Workers. It was bad enough when Factories, Industries, and Plants were shipped overseas to reduce Labor Costs.
Now ... it appears to the Average American, that Third World Labor is being imported INTO the US to reduce Labor Costs of the remaining Sectors that can't be outsourced abroad.

Hence, a sense of Despair ... and the rise of Trump.

--->The Average American Worker Drone will be living LESS of the Good Life than his predecessors<---

 

[Superfreak]

David Brooks, the New York Times columnist, has a new op-ed about the rise in teenage suicide rates. Being a reactionary, he naturally looks for something newfangled to blame, and decides it's attributable to technology -- online trolling, specifically. I'm not convinced.

For starters, take a look at suicide rates by age:

Rates are lowest among the young, and they've been rising for every age demographic, including the elderly block we'd expect to be least impacted by cyber-bullying. And while the rise of social media has been a global phenomenon, there hasn't been a rise in suicide in all of the tech-savvy nations, as we'd expect if cyber-bullying were a big driver:

Things have actually been getting better in Germany, Sweden, and France, for example.

Also, if you check rates by state, you'll see there are huge variations among the states, and those with the biggest problem are definitely not the ones with the highest Internet usage or Facebook penetration:

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/population-health/us-states-ranked-by-suicide-rate.html
https://www.internetworldstats.com/stats26.htm

The least suicidal states, for example, are NJ, NY, MA, MD, CT, CA, IL, RI, DE, and HI. In terms of Facebook penetration, they rank 7th, 19th, 6th, 25th, 32nd, 15th, 2nd, 3rd, 50th, and 13th. So, eight out of ten have unusually high Facebook engagement. If cyber-bullying were a major driver of rates, we'd expect most of those states to have unusually serious problems with suicide. But there just doesn't seem to be any meaningful positive correlation between social media/Internet usage and suicide, at the state level. If anything, the correlation seems to go the opposite way, with the less "online" states having more suicide problems.

So, I just don't see data to back Brooks's view. However, if you look at the data, something else does stick out. Of the ten least suicidal states, every single one voted for Hillary Clinton. At the other end of the spectrum, you have MT, AK, WY, NM, UT, NV, ID, OK, CO, SD, and WV -- seven out of ten of which went for Trump. I think that rather than looking to blame technology (or other pet arguments Brooks tends to reach for, like blaming a move away from traditional religion for society's ills), we'd do well to think about what it is about conservative societies that makes people suicidally depressed (or, if you prefer, what it is about liberal societies that makes them less so). Possibly it could have to do with economic opportunities, mental health support, or just the tone of the culture. Urbanization might also be a factor -- e.g., the boredom and inactivity of rural life contributing to substance abuse and obesity, which in turn contribute to depression and suicide.

I would agree that technology is not the likely culprit. One thing that has changed dramatically is the prescribing of ADHD drugs. Those drugs, when taken for longer periods of time have the same effect on the mind as harsh drugs like cocaine. It leads to a lack of control over impulsive decisions. ADHD is over-diagnosed and putting far too many kids on anti-psychotic drugs.

 

[katzgar]

American Worker Drones are losing their jobs to Third World Workers. It was bad enough when Factories, Industries, and Plants were shipped overseas to reduce Labor Costs.
Now ... it appears to the Average American, that Third World Labor is being imported INTO the US to reduce Labor Costs of the remaining Sectors that can't be outsourced abroad.

Hence, a sense of Despair ... and the rise of Trump.

--->The Average American Worker Drone will be living LESS of the Good Life than his predecessors<---

actually many jobs are being lost to automation.

 

[anonymoose]

Urbanization might also be a factor -- e.g., the boredom and inactivity of rural life contributing to substance abuse and obesity, which in turn contribute to depression and suicide.

Didn't you make a post or start a thread on this before?
Anyway social connectivity is important for not only mental health but physical health.
As to Alaska, the suicide rate among Native Alaskan teens is thru the roof. And Natives vote democrat.
That's no doubt true in other states with a larger percentage of Native Americans.
I don't have the time or inclination to look up the percentage of Native Americans in the high suicide states, you seem to. I bet there's a high positive correlation of states with higher suicide rates with higher Native populations, especially among teens with WV being the outlier.

As long as we're on the topic of premature death, why don't you give us some information about states that voted for Hillary and the murder rate? Murder is a bigger problem than suicide.

 

[Jack]

actually many jobs are being lost to automation.

EXACTLY. Automation, Robotics, and Artificial Intelligence. WE DON"T NEED TO IMPORT THIRD WORLD LABOR.

 

[Heff]

David Brooks, the New York Times columnist, has a new op-ed about the rise in teenage suicide rates. Being a reactionary, he naturally looks for something newfangled to blame, and decides it's attributable to technology -- online trolling, specifically. I'm not convinced.

For starters, take a look at suicide rates by age:

Rates are lowest among the young, and they've been rising for every age demographic, including the elderly block we'd expect to be least impacted by cyber-bullying. And while the rise of social media has been a global phenomenon, there hasn't been a rise in suicide in all of the tech-savvy nations, as we'd expect if cyber-bullying were a big driver:

Things have actually been getting better in Germany, Sweden, and France, for example.

Also, if you check rates by state, you'll see there are huge variations among the states, and those with the biggest problem are definitely not the ones with the highest Internet usage or Facebook penetration:

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/population-health/us-states-ranked-by-suicide-rate.html
https://www.internetworldstats.com/stats26.htm

The least suicidal states, for example, are NJ, NY, MA, MD, CT, CA, IL, RI, DE, and HI. In terms of Facebook penetration, they rank 7th, 19th, 6th, 25th, 32nd, 15th, 2nd, 3rd, 50th, and 13th. So, eight out of ten have unusually high Facebook engagement. If cyber-bullying were a major driver of rates, we'd expect most of those states to have unusually serious problems with suicide. But there just doesn't seem to be any meaningful positive correlation between social media/Internet usage and suicide, at the state level. If anything, the correlation seems to go the opposite way, with the less "online" states having more suicide problems.

So, I just don't see data to back Brooks's view. However, if you look at the data, something else does stick out. Of the ten least suicidal states, every single one voted for Hillary Clinton. At the other end of the spectrum, you have MT, AK, WY, NM, UT, NV, ID, OK, CO, SD, and WV -- seven out of ten of which went for Trump. I think that rather than looking to blame technology (or other pet arguments Brooks tends to reach for, like blaming a move away from traditional religion for society's ills), we'd do well to think about what it is about conservative societies that makes people suicidally depressed (or, if you prefer, what it is about liberal societies that makes them less so). Possibly it could have to do with economic opportunities, mental health support, or just the tone of the culture. Urbanization might also be a factor -- e.g., the boredom and inactivity of rural life contributing to substance abuse and obesity, which in turn contribute to depression and suicide.

States and societies don't commit suicide; humans do. It's a leap to suggest it's the states and societies "that makes people suicidally depressed", while completely ignoring any other motivating factors.

If you can find a suicide note lamenting "urbanization", the "tone of the culture", you might have a point.

 

[reagansghost]

The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2017 was 14.0 per 100,000 individuals.

The rate of suicide is highest in middle-age white men in particular.

In 2017, men died by suicide 3.54x more often than women.

On average, there are 129 suicides per day.

White males accounted for 69.67% of suicide deaths in 2017.

In 2017, firearms accounted for 50.57% of all suicide deaths.


https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

 

[katzgar]

EXACTLY. Automation, Robotics, and Artificial Intelligence. WE DON"T NEED TO IMPORT THIRD WORLD LABOR.

actually we do. There are many areas that are not automated. https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farm-labor-guestworkers/

 

[evince]

heartless government makes depressed people more depressed

 

[Monad Portal]

farms becoming bigger is making elsewhere shitty

that's corporate farming.

 

[Monad Portal]

actually we do. There are many areas that are not automated. https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farm-labor-guestworkers/

we shoud use domestic laborers instead of importing more desperate workers.

 

[Callinectes]

Okay, I was waiting for you to bring Trump and conservatism into it. But you're not getting off that easy, you have to dig a little deeper. First, we have to acknowledge that these "teens" are actually children, dependent on adults for virtually everything they need to survive. Second, children need(and actually DESIRE)structure, discipline and instruction to thrive. Third, children are self-centered to the extreme, they are mostly concerned with how whatever is happening around them, affects them. This is not a bad thing, and there are thousands of wonderful examples of kids acting altruistically. I was lovingly raised by two democrats who gave me everything I needed to survive, and threw in patriotism and optimism for the future of the nation. Do you really think kids are getting any of that today? Lefty parents are making their kids into their "best friends" and telling them to vote democrat, and the democrats are saying shit like "the earth is going to end in 12 years! The only way to save it is to vote democrat!". Trump gets in with a positive message(and positive results)and all the sudden you end up with a shit load of confused kids. But everything comes from the parents, teachers, and friends at that age. Garbage in and garbage out. If there is no positive message, and therefore no hope, these kids are going to continue to die. Democrats have built a dying world of constant crisis, each one more ominous and insurmountable than the last but with always only one solution: vote democrat. These kids are not stupid though. They understand that the nightmares you have introduced them to cannot be politically overcome, in fact, they are impossible to overcome. And that leaves only despair

 

[Monad Portal]

actually many jobs are being lost to automation.

that's wrong too.

 

[Oneuli]

I would agree that technology is not the likely culprit. One thing that has changed dramatically is the prescribing of ADHD drugs. Those drugs, when taken for longer periods of time have the same effect on the mind as harsh drugs like cocaine. It leads to a lack of control over impulsive decisions. ADHD is over-diagnosed and putting far too many kids on anti-psychotic drugs.

Presumably that's been studied pretty well. Do you have any links exploring whether ADHD prescriptions correlate with suicide?

 

[Oneuli]

to separate people from land on which they can survive and grow food in the case of a collapse.

they do this through a myriad of financial manipulations, propaganda, and land use restrictions.

do you deny that this is possible?

Again, I'm asking how, specifically, they'd be doing that, and why.

 

[Bill]

Over exposure to country music may be a huge factor

 

[Bill]

David Brooks, the New York Times columnist, has a new op-ed about the rise in teenage suicide rates. Being a reactionary, he naturally looks for something newfangled to blame, and decides it's attributable to technology -- online trolling, specifically. I'm not convinced.

For starters, take a look at suicide rates by age:

Rates are lowest among the young, and they've been rising for every age demographic, including the elderly block we'd expect to be least impacted by cyber-bullying. And while the rise of social media has been a global phenomenon, there hasn't been a rise in suicide in all of the tech-savvy nations, as we'd expect if cyber-bullying were a big driver:

Things have actually been getting better in Germany, Sweden, and France, for example.

Also, if you check rates by state, you'll see there are huge variations among the states, and those with the biggest problem are definitely not the ones with the highest Internet usage or Facebook penetration:

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/population-health/us-states-ranked-by-suicide-rate.html
https://www.internetworldstats.com/stats26.htm

The least suicidal states, for example, are NJ, NY, MA, MD, CT, CA, IL, RI, DE, and HI. In terms of Facebook penetration, they rank 7th, 19th, 6th, 25th, 32nd, 15th, 2nd, 3rd, 50th, and 13th. So, eight out of ten have unusually high Facebook engagement. If cyber-bullying were a major driver of rates, we'd expect most of those states to have unusually serious problems with suicide. But there just doesn't seem to be any meaningful positive correlation between social media/Internet usage and suicide, at the state level. If anything, the correlation seems to go the opposite way, with the less "online" states having more suicide problems.

So, I just don't see data to back Brooks's view. However, if you look at the data, something else does stick out. Of the ten least suicidal states, every single one voted for Hillary Clinton. At the other end of the spectrum, you have MT, AK, WY, NM, UT, NV, ID, OK, CO, SD, and WV -- seven out of ten of which went for Trump. I think that rather than looking to blame technology (or other pet arguments Brooks tends to reach for, like blaming a move away from traditional religion for society's ills), we'd do well to think about what it is about conservative societies that makes people suicidally depressed (or, if you prefer, what it is about liberal societies that makes them less so). Possibly it could have to do with economic opportunities, mental health support, or just the tone of the culture. Urbanization might also be a factor -- e.g., the boredom and inactivity of rural life contributing to substance abuse and obesity, which in turn contribute to depression and suicide.

I watched a video of David last night, & had listened partially to it on it's orginal broadcast over KQED radio out of SF... https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/archive/video/david-brooks-quest-moral-life

While I do agree w/ him on some issues on others he can be a bit out there.. It is a good listen if you got an hour to kill..

 

[Oneuli]

Didn't you make a post or start a thread on this before?

Possibly. The social dysfunction of rural America is a really big story that I think needs more attention. It's not just the suicide rates, either. There's a relative lack of academic accomplish, low productivity, low life expectancy, high obesity, etc.

As to Alaska, the suicide rate among Native Alaskan teens is thru the roof. And Natives vote democrat.

To be clear, I'm not arguing the individuals who are killing themselves are conservative. I'm arguing that the societies controlled by conservatives produce a lot of people who kill themselves. That's a clear difference. Alaska has long been dominated by Republicans, who set policies that impact liberal and conservative residents alike.

As long as we're on the topic of premature death, why don't you give us some information about states that voted for Hillary and the murder rate? Murder is a bigger problem than suicide.

First, no, suicides are the MUCH bigger problem. The US has about 15.3 suicides per 100k, versus 5.3 per 100k for murders.

Second, I'd be happy to discuss murder rates. Murder is disproportionately a red-state problem. The highest murder rates are in the South, which as a region has a rate of 6.4. The region with the lowest murder rate is the Northeast, at 3.5. The worst states, in order, are LA, MO, NV, MD, AR, AK, AL, MS, IL, SC, and TN, in order (TN and SC are tied, so I listed them both. Of those, eight went for Trump and only three to Clinton. At the other end of the spectrum, the best states are NH, ND, ME, RI, ID, MN, VT, NE, UT, OR, and MA (OR and MA are tied). That's seven for Clinton, four for Trump.

So, what do you think it is about conservative-dominated states that makes them so violent?

 

[Oneuli]

States and societies don't commit suicide; humans do.

The point, again, is that humans in some states and societies do so at much higher rates than human in other states and societies. The question is, what is it about those states and societies that results in those high suicide rates.

If you can find a suicide note lamenting "urbanization", the "tone of the culture", you might have a point.

If you think I was saying urbanization increases suicide, you misunderstood badly. Reread.

 

[Oneuli]

The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2017 was 14.0 per 100,000 individuals.

The rate of suicide is highest in middle-age white men in particular.

In 2017, men died by suicide 3.54x more often than women.

On average, there are 129 suicides per day.

White males accounted for 69.67% of suicide deaths in 2017.

In 2017, firearms accounted for 50.57% of all suicide deaths.


https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Firearms could also help to explain the higher suicide rates in rural areas and red states -- if you're more likely to have a gun at hand at a moment of depression, you're more likely to kill yourself.