Steubenville Thoughts

Christie they just arrested two teens on charges of aggravated menacing for making threats against the victim.

Both teens arrested were girls.

Edited out any reference to other thread. Just proves I made the right call. Let all that stuff stay confined to the sewer thread, started by a sewer rat, posted on mainly by sewer dwellers.

Isn't it amazing what some women will do for male approval? If one of these was my daughter I would kill myself out of shame. It would be the very least I could do after presenting society with one of these mewling things.
 
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I would like to read it. I just asked my brother about this, he happened to be talking about teaching 12 yo's to gamble as part of some fund raiser the school or little league was doing. ANd I said, well speaking of that what do you make of this Steubenville thing? He only knew vaguely of it, he told me he doesn't read about rape cases because he doesn't get it and it just gets him mad. (he has a daughter, but also a son). So I mentioned that I hope he is talking to my nephew about consent, because if fathers don't teach them, who does, their teammates? And I asked him if our dad had ever had this conversation with him and he said no never.

So we were not taught about consent in our home, yet neither of my brothers are rapists, and I honestly believe both would stop an attack like that even when they were younger. Both played sports. But my brother did say the football players are the worst. And I asked why, and he said he didn't know either but reminded me of a terrible thing that happened when we were in school, at our school. Three football players raped a girl up at the track, and it was said they used a lacrosse stick. They were suspended. I never forgot who they are either. But there was no social media then so it was all whisper whisper, no one knew anything, and the police were never notified (or at least, the boys were not charged). They suffered a suspension. The point being, it's so easy to say, oh the kids today, but I think this always happened. It may have been covered up more often, though I believe it is still covered up a lot.

But yeah, that doesn't answer anything about sports culture. I am going to look up this book.

You know what is truly amazing to me is that I have seen a lot of guys who have passed out at party's and I have never seen any females take advantage of these "legless" lads.

I wonder how many of these rape apologist have ever gotten drunk to the point they black out? Did they worry about being raped?

The other thread sickened me. I didn't comment on it because other then to tell them that they are all part of the problem, I was at a loss that this attitude is still prevelant. It just sickens me, just when I think society is taking a step forward, there are still people trying to drag us two steps back.
 
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Did your father or anyone else talk to you about consent?

Bud drilled it into his sons heads! I did as well. Respect above all else. Their older sisters instructed them in how to treat girls.

They know there would have been hell to pay at home if they were anything less than perfect gentle men.
 
I used a longer ban list than usual for obvious reasons. I am sure I left off a couple of names and will kick myself later.

-What is it with this football culture? Is it sports culture, or confined mostly to football? What is it about towns that glorify high school, college, and of course, pro, football players? I guess I am especially interested in the glorification of high school football players. Really? When I was in high school my friends and I sometimes went to the games (only when we had nothing better to do), but it wasn't even the biggest thing going on in our school, no less the rest of the town who couldn't have cared any less. In a town in NJ several high school football players raped a mentally handicapped girl with a baseball bat and another object, and the town rallied around them and were brutal about the victim.

-If you watch the video of some of what went on in Steubenville, you realize this went on for hours, the girl was unresponsive, in fact, unconscious the entire time, and everyone there laughed and cheered. She was also urinated on and ejaculated on. I can't think of anything they missed in expressing their hatred. I believe that if this had been a black male, it would be seen as the hate crime it so clearly was. However, if it had been a black woman it would not be seen as the hate crime it is, but in fact, the victim blaming would have been even worse. She would have almost definitely been accused of prostitution. Why is this not seen as a hate crime? This was a hate crime.

-I have seen written countless comments about the victim drinking. Firstly, I believe she was drugged. Because she had no memory of what had happened and had to piece it together, she did not go to the police in time. They could not run a tox screen. From the first time I read her statements, I was chilled, every word of it is highly consistent with Rophenol. However, I have not argued she was drugged because it is a difficult position. If you argue she was drugged, it is almost as you are saying that if she was not drugged and actually drank enough to be remain completely unconscious during an all-night relentless assault, then it's her fault. NOthing could be further from the truth, but she believes she was drugged, and so do I. For those who say otherwise - if the men had not taped their assaults, does anyone doubt they would have claimed it didn't happen? But they would admit to the rophenol right? Right?? That all aside, let's go forward on the theory that she was drunk and blacked out. When a guy drinks himself into unconsciousness, and a group of men take turns sticking a dildo in his ass, everyone asks how he could have let that happen right? What was he doing there in the first place? HOw could be drink so much? What did he expect to happen?

Oh, no, they don't. No one ever asks that because men are presumed to have the right to go wherever they want to go, drink whatever they want to drink, and to pass out a parties without having objects stuck into their bodies. HOw dare women have the same expectations? What do they think they are, human beings????

-What is happening with sex education in our country? Why is the concept of consent not being taught? Consent is not the absence of a no, it is the presence of a yes. An unconscious or totally inebriated person does not have the ability to give consent. An unconscious person cannot say no. This is very easy stuff. Why is it not being taught? IS it because too much of our sex education revolves around instilling into our youth the dangers of saying yes? Do we place far too much value on virginity, celibacy and abstinence? Is it possible we are not as a culture even equipped to deal with what a willing woman looks like? We are so afraid to go there, to the woman, the young girl especially, who gives enthusiastic consent? We are failing our youth, that is for certain.

I could go on and on, this case has brought up so much in my mind, that I am wondering about constantly. But something is wrong here. Something is very, very wrong here.

even if she was not drugged, has anyone looked in to the fact that under age drinking was going on and how this occurred.

where did all of the alcohol come from?

whose home did this occur in and why was it allowed?

every person involved in a negative way in this case needs to be ferreted out and charged

here is another element of this case:

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — Authorities have arrested two eastern Ohio girls suspected of making social media threats against a West Virginia girl who accused two high school football players of raping her in a case that drew widespread attention.
Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine said the girls arrested Monday posted threatening Facebook and Twitter comments on Sunday, the day the players were convicted in Steubenville (STOO'-behn-vihl). DeWine says the girls are being held in juvenile detention on allegations of aggravated menacing after an investigation by state and local authorities.
DeWine says he hopes the arrests end harassment of the alleged victim.
A judge sentenced the players to at least a year in juvenile prison. A grand jury will look into whether others broke the law by not speaking up after the attack last summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/2-charged-threatening-girl-ohio-rape-case-234448905--spt.html

what is wrong with these people, has hero worship gone too far
 
If you watch the video of some of what went on in Steubenville, you realize this went on for hours, the girl was unresponsive, in fact, unconscious the entire time, and everyone there laughed and cheered.
Then apparently we saw a different video. One guy thought it was funny but the others were obviously very upset. Unfortunately the guy laughing about it was the biggest guy in the room.
 
You know what is truly amazing to me is that I have seen a lot of guys who have passed out at party's and I have never seen any females take advantage of these "legless" lads.

I wonder how many of these rape apologist have ever gotten drunk to the point they black out? Did they worry about raped?

The other thread sickened me. I didn't comment on it because other then to tell them that they are all part of the problem, I was am a loss that this attitude is still prevelant. It just sickens me, just when I think society is taking a step forward, there are still people trying to drag us two steps back.

They would be more shamed by a daughter who drinks at a party than a son who watches this rape and doesn't intervene. What would our world look like if we spent all the energy we now spend on policing girls and teaching them how to avoid rape, on teaching boys how to prevent it? On teaching boys that the good and right thing to do if ever in this situation is to stop it, and if they feel they can't, then to call the police? What would our world look like after this revolution? Because that is what that would be, a revolution.
 
They would be more shamed by a daughter who drinks at a party than a son who watches this rape and doesn't intervene. What would our world look like if we spent all the energy we now spend on policing girls and teaching them how to avoid rape, on teaching boys how to prevent it? On teaching boys that the good and right thing to do if ever in this situation is to stop it, and if they feel they can't, then to call the police? What would our world look like after this revolution? Because that is what that would be, a revolution.

Having a daughter is a scary thing. Having a beautiful daughter can be downright terrifying. Someone told me something that fits these discussions.

"When you have a son you worry about one penis. When you have a daughter you worry about every penis". Sad but true.

Darla, what we need to do is to teach our sons to do the right thing every time. And we need to teach our daughters that they need not seek approval from boys, but seek it from themselves. And that Barbi is not something to emulate.
 
Having a daughter is a scary thing. Having a beautiful daughter can be downright terrifying. Someone told me something that fits these discussions.

"When you have a son you worry about one penis. When you have a daughter you worry about every penis". Sad but true.

Darla, what we need to do is to teach our sons to do the right thing every time. And we need to teach our daughters that they need not seek approval from boys, but seek it from themselves. And that Barbi is not something to emulate.
Well hell that's getting back to my point about people over thinking this issue. This, to me, is at the most fundemental level knowing the difference between right and wrong. It doesn't take the sermon on the mount to teach a boy that rape or sexual assualt of any stripe is wrong.
 
Well hell that's getting back to my point about people over thinking this issue. This, to me, is at the most fundemental level knowing the difference between right and wrong. It doesn't take the sermon on the mount to teach a boy that rape or sexual assualt of any stripe is wrong.

Agreed. But then, what is it going to take to teach girls that squirming for male approval by slut-shaming their friends and other girls, calling them drunken whores, and turning their back on a girlfriend who, heartbreakingly, called them up the next day when she started to hear something horrible had happened, to assure them she "wasn't being a slut". There is something to teaching girls to find their approval in themselves. I know men probably think I'm a pain, but two summers ago my niece's friend asked me if I thought her thighs were fat when we were by the pool. That's all it took for me to go on a very long rant about what effing bs that is, and the second you start telling yourself that there is sure to be some guy to come along, and you will be all like, I better do whatever I think will please him, after all, he is soooo good to want to be with someone who has these horrible thighs". We are fighting against a very strong culture of objectification and I don't know, I think some things do have to be taught.

But yeah, that is what I was trying to work through on this thread - does teaching boys about consent help much? I think you are right, it doesn't take a sermon that rape and sexual assault are wrong...whether or not the victim is awake, asleep, drunk, sober, on drugs, etc. Pretty simple.

Teaching them though that it is true bravery to stand up against a group of boys who are doing that to someone, is another thing. That also involves self-esteem.
 
They would be more shamed by a daughter who drinks at a party than a son who watches this rape and doesn't intervene. What would our world look like if we spent all the energy we now spend on policing girls and teaching them how to avoid rape, on teaching boys how to prevent it? On teaching boys that the good and right thing to do if ever in this situation is to stop it, and if they feel they can't, then to call the police? What would our world look like after this revolution? Because that is what that would be, a revolution.

Good parents do not do this. Clearly, the boys involved have shitty values, or at least parents who do not regard morality and character as the two most important things in life.
 
Having a daughter is a scary thing. Having a beautiful daughter can be downright terrifying. Someone told me something that fits these discussions.

"When you have a son you worry about one penis. When you have a daughter you worry about every penis". Sad but true.

Darla, what we need to do is to teach our sons to do the right thing every time. And we need to teach our daughters that they need not seek approval from boys, but seek it from themselves. And that Barbi is not something to emulate.
not just that. I think part of the issue is also when we have sons, we teach them to take care of themselves, how to protect themselves, and that they are to protect their female family members, but when we have daughters we shelter them, teach them that they are to be protected by their male members and not teach them how to protect themselves. I think we actually do a major disservice to them by being that way.
 
Then apparently we saw a different video. One guy thought it was funny but the others were obviously very upset. Unfortunately the guy laughing about it was the biggest guy in the room.

Sure...they were upset. So upset nobody contacted authorities. At all.
 
Darla, while I agree this is rape and horrible, also that these guys likely used Rohypnol you are wrong about they guy who passes out and they stick dildos in the behind. The first question would be "what did you expect", and the second would be, "why are you such a 'lightweight'"... the third would be "why do you hang around with d*cks like that?"... and nobody would likely ask if they went to the cops about it, it would be assumed he would not.
 
Darla, while I agree this is rape and horrible, also that these guys likely used Rohypnol you are wrong about they guy who passes out and they stick dildos in the behind. The first question would be "what did you expect", and the second would be, "why are you such a 'lightweight'"... the third would be "why do you hang around with d*cks like that?"... and nobody would likely ask if they went to the cops about it, it would be assumed he would not.

I did not mean to make light of male rape. I don't think men are slut shamed, but you're right, they are shamed into believing their masculinity was compromised.
 
not just that. I think part of the issue is also when we have sons, we teach them to take care of themselves, how to protect themselves, and that they are to protect their female family members, but when we have daughters we shelter them, teach them that they are to be protected by their male members and not teach them how to protect themselves. I think we actually do a major disservice to them by being that way.

I did teach my daughter more about being cautious than I did my sons. But that is the reality of the world. But my daughters also know how to protect themselves and, more importantly, know it is perfectly fine to do so.
 
I did teach my daughter more about being cautious than I did my sons. But that is the reality of the world. But my daughters also know how to protect themselves and, more importantly, know it is perfectly fine to do so.

I taught all of my children to be aware of their surroundings. Being a Catholic, it was necessary!
 
Agreed. But then, what is it going to take to teach girls that squirming for male approval by slut-shaming their friends and other girls, calling them drunken whores, and turning their back on a girlfriend who, heartbreakingly, called them up the next day when she started to hear something horrible had happened, to assure them she "wasn't being a slut". There is something to teaching girls to find their approval in themselves. I know men probably think I'm a pain, but two summers ago my niece's friend asked me if I thought her thighs were fat when we were by the pool. That's all it took for me to go on a very long rant about what effing bs that is, and the second you start telling yourself that there is sure to be some guy to come along, and you will be all like, I better do whatever I think will please him, after all, he is soooo good to want to be with someone who has these horrible thighs". We are fighting against a very strong culture of objectification and I don't know, I think some things do have to be taught.

But yeah, that is what I was trying to work through on this thread - does teaching boys about consent help much? I think you are right, it doesn't take a sermon that rape and sexual assault are wrong...whether or not the victim is awake, asleep, drunk, sober, on drugs, etc. Pretty simple.

Teaching them though that it is true bravery to stand up against a group of boys who are doing that to someone, is another thing. That also involves self-esteem.
How do you teach women self acceptance? You tell me and we'll both win the Nobel Prize. I can remember when I used to work as a volunteer personal fitness trainer. My single biggest frustration in coaching women was their preoccupation with body image. Most guys, with in limits, could care less. Women, good lord do they care. The ones who were hung up on body usually wasted my time as their goals and values weren't compatible with what I was trying to teach them, which wasn't how to look well but how to live well.

One of the tests I had before I would consent to train a woman was that she would have to go home and throw away her bathroom scale cause that's not how I worked. Probably half the women I told that to said "Oh no I couldn't possibly do that." and I'd say "Sorry, go find another coach." and they would. I know that makes me sound like a prick but I just simply didn't know how to deal with their body image hangups and coach them at the same time. Some would get the big idea, that it's not about looking hot in a bikini. It's about enjoying life by being physically active. The looking hot part comes mostly from living well and self confidence (good genes don't hurt....I mean a good coach can only do so much.....someone like SF will alway be fucking ugly no matter how hard they train! ;)

For guys most of coaching is about motivation and setting and accomplishing goals. I found that in training women it was mostly about incrementally building self confidence by showing they were capable of phsyically accomplishing far more than they thought they could if they just tried and have a positive attitude about it but that was only affective with less than half the women I trained. Most were obsessed with getting fit for all the wrong damned reason. It was truly exasperating.
 
How do you teach women self acceptance? You tell me and we'll both win the Nobel Prize. I can remember when I used to work as a volunteer personal fitness trainer. My single biggest frustration in coaching women was their preoccupation with body image. Most guys, with in limits, could care less. Women, good lord do they care. The ones who were hung up on body usually wasted my time as their goals and values weren't compatible with what I was trying to teach them, which wasn't how to look well but how to live well.

One of the tests I had before I would consent to train a woman was that she would have to go home and throw away her bathroom scale cause that's not how I worked. Probably half the women I told that to said "Oh no I couldn't possibly do that." and I'd say "Sorry, go find another coach." and they would. I know that makes me sound like a prick but I just simply didn't know how to deal with their body image hangups and coach them at the same time. Some would get the big idea, that it's not about looking hot in a bikini. It's about enjoying life by being physically active. The looking hot part comes mostly from living well and self confidence (good genes don't hurt....I mean a good coach can only do so much.....someone like SF will alway be fucking ugly no matter how hard they train! ;)

For guys most of coaching is about motivation and setting and accomplishing goals. I found that in training women it was mostly about incrementally building self confidence by showing they were capable of phsyically accomplishing far more than they thought they could if they just tried and have a positive attitude about it but that was only affective with less than half the women I trained. Most were obsessed with getting fit for all the wrong damned reason. It was truly exasperating.

Seriously, you don't know why women have acceptance issues?
 
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