Steubenville Thoughts

I used a longer ban list than usual for obvious reasons. I am sure I left off a couple of names and will kick myself later.

-What is it with this football culture? Is it sports culture, or confined mostly to football? What is it about towns that glorify high school, college, and of course, pro, football players? I guess I am especially interested in the glorification of high school football players. Really? When I was in high school my friends and I sometimes went to the games (only when we had nothing better to do), but it wasn't even the biggest thing going on in our school, no less the rest of the town who couldn't have cared any less. In a town in NJ several high school football players raped a mentally handicapped girl with a baseball bat and another object, and the town rallied around them and were brutal about the victim.

-If you watch the video of some of what went on in Steubenville, you realize this went on for hours, the girl was unresponsive, in fact, unconscious the entire time, and everyone there laughed and cheered. She was also urinated on and ejaculated on. I can't think of anything they missed in expressing their hatred. I believe that if this had been a black male, it would be seen as the hate crime it so clearly was. However, if it had been a black woman it would not be seen as the hate crime it is, but in fact, the victim blaming would have been even worse. She would have almost definitely been accused of prostitution. Why is this not seen as a hate crime? This was a hate crime.

-I have seen written countless comments about the victim drinking. Firstly, I believe she was drugged. Because she had no memory of what had happened and had to piece it together, she did not go to the police in time. They could not run a tox screen. From the first time I read her statements, I was chilled, every word of it is highly consistent with Rophenol. However, I have not argued she was drugged because it is a difficult position. If you argue she was drugged, it is almost as you are saying that if she was not drugged and actually drank enough to be remain completely unconscious during an all-night relentless assault, then it's her fault. NOthing could be further from the truth, but she believes she was drugged, and so do I. For those who say otherwise - if the men had not taped their assaults, does anyone doubt they would have claimed it didn't happen? But they would admit to the rophenol right? Right?? That all aside, let's go forward on the theory that she was drunk and blacked out. When a guy drinks himself into unconsciousness, and a group of men take turns sticking a dildo in his ass, everyone asks how he could have let that happen right? What was he doing there in the first place? HOw could be drink so much? What did he expect to happen?

Oh, no, they don't. No one ever asks that because men are presumed to have the right to go wherever they want to go, drink whatever they want to drink, and to pass out a parties without having objects stuck into their bodies. HOw dare women have the same expectations? What do they think they are, human beings????

-What is happening with sex education in our country? Why is the concept of consent not being taught? Consent is not the absence of a no, it is the presence of a yes. An unconscious or totally inebriated person does not have the ability to give consent. An unconscious person cannot say no. This is very easy stuff. Why is it not being taught? IS it because too much of our sex education revolves around instilling into our youth the dangers of saying yes? Do we place far too much value on virginity, celibacy and abstinence? Is it possible we are not as a culture even equipped to deal with what a willing woman looks like? We are so afraid to go there, to the woman, the young girl especially, who gives enthusiastic consent? We are failing our youth, that is for certain.

I could go on and on, this case has brought up so much in my mind, that I am wondering about constantly. But something is wrong here. Something is very, very wrong here.
 
In many ways I hate using the language I am fluent in, because it is so easily mocked by misogynists. This is rape culture:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kia-makarechi/cnn-steubenville-coverage_b_2896948.html

I have no other words for it. CNN anchors weeping for the rapists and their lost futures, is rape culture. It is the culture, the widespread attitudes and beliefs, that allow for a group of human beings to watch another human being assaulted and degraded for hours without anyone thinking to stop it.

This was not something that happened to the assailants. Yes, their future has been greatly altered, but first of all, just as an aside, they are the kind of people who can do something like this, what else might those futures have held???? How many women were they going to rape in college??? How many women won't be raped now??? Why were these questions not considered? Their future was changed, if it was changed, because they made the decision to rape and degrade a human being. I am not at all convinced their futures were changed, since if they had gotten away with this, how can anyone read about what they did and then watch those tapes, and read their texts, and not know, know beyond any shadow of any doubt, that they would have raped again?? So just how promising were their futures??

And what of the victim's future? Everyone saw the assailants crying in court, but only after they were found guilty, before that they were doing a lot of smirking. Regardless, so we all know about that. How many know that the victim's mother said her daughter is afraid to go to school, stays alone in her room, and cries herself to sleep every night??

What of her future? She is disposable. The rapists are not.

This is rape culture.
 
it's difficult to imagine a 'rape culture', but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I don't believe that this particular case is about rape though. My opinion, this has more to do with a basic disrespect for humanity, different races, and women in general. This victim probably trusted some, or most, of those involved in violating her and she paid a high price. As badly as I feel for her, I hope that the experience doesn't break her, but makes her stronger and wiser.

We've (most everybody, not just a left or right thing) made our own race war, our own gender war, our own class war and done it specifically in the name of pursuit of politics. we've created our own damaging cultures thinking that humanity will win as a whole. Unfortunately in doing so, we end up with the weakest of our society paying extremely high prices.

no, this isn't a rape culture. this is a hate culture.
 
I remember the NJ case. The football thing is weird, to say the least.

This case was also really hard to read about, but the one thing that really struck me about it was the defense's argument that she couldn't say no, because she was unconscious, which you mentioned. It's hard to believe adults could make that kind of argument.
 
I remember the NJ case. The football thing is weird, to say the least.
the football thing struck me weird also when I first read about it, but in a way it makes some sort of sense. this country has a whole lot of little towns that are literally dying. companies leave, jobs dry up, people get desperate. they cling to anything that has an iota of hope and success. For some people, that seems to be football. whether it leads to a partial or full college deal, or even to the pros in some way. these parents will forego any sort of morals or ethics to protect their kids in these situations.

This case was also really hard to read about, but the one thing that really struck me about it was the defense's argument that she couldn't say no, because she was unconscious, which you mentioned. It's hard to believe adults could make that kind of argument.
what will be very telling about people, in general, is if this argument wins an acquittal.
 
it's difficult to imagine a 'rape culture', but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I don't believe that this particular case is about rape though. My opinion, this has more to do with a basic disrespect for humanity, different races, and women in general. This victim probably trusted some, or most, of those involved in violating her and she paid a high price. As badly as I feel for her, I hope that the experience doesn't break her, but makes her stronger and wiser.

We've (most everybody, not just a left or right thing) made our own race war, our own gender war, our own class war and done it specifically in the name of pursuit of politics. we've created our own damaging cultures thinking that humanity will win as a whole. Unfortunately in doing so, we end up with the weakest of our society paying extremely high prices.

no, this isn't a rape culture. this is a hate culture.

I believe it is both. It is definitely hate, which is why I called it a hate crime. And yes she trusted at least one of her assailants, and believed he had taken care of her, which was his story to her. Until the video began hitting online and she understood what he had done. It is unbelievable to me in some ways. I still do not have my mind completely around this night.
 
I remember the NJ case. The football thing is weird, to say the least.

This case was also really hard to read about, but the one thing that really struck me about it was the defense's argument that she couldn't say no, because she was unconscious, which you mentioned. It's hard to believe adults could make that kind of argument.

It's effing unreal, and talk about hating men. The people who argue; what do you expect if you get so drunk? are the ones who hate men. Break down what they are saying; men are incapable of seeing a drunk woman without raping her.

That is some statement. I do not believe any such thing. Most men can be around a drunk woman and not rape her. The more I read statements like that though, the more I wonder just how many men out there it isn't safe to drink around. If you go by what is written on the internet, it appears to be an awful lot of them.
 
the football thing struck me weird also when I first read about it, but in a way it makes some sort of sense. this country has a whole lot of little towns that are literally dying. companies leave, jobs dry up, people get desperate. they cling to anything that has an iota of hope and success. For some people, that seems to be football. whether it leads to a partial or full college deal, or even to the pros in some way. these parents will forego any sort of morals or ethics to protect their kids in these situations.

I do believe this is a contributing factor.
 
Well, within men's sports, you are going to get a lot of guys who view strength and male prowess as equal to physical domination over women. That can lead to those stupid arm wrestling and "hey, can you lift me up?" games with the cheerleaders, or it can lead to dangerous and unhealthy actions such as date rape.
 
Football and sports culture aren't just limited to small and rural towns. Inner cities are just as bad - every football season the Seattle metro area is full of Husky mania, and everyone (aside from the WSU alumni, of course) wants to see the UW pound WSU into the turf during the Apple Cup game.
 
the football thing struck me weird also when I first read about it, but in a way it makes some sort of sense. this country has a whole lot of little towns that are literally dying. companies leave, jobs dry up, people get desperate. they cling to anything that has an iota of hope and success. For some people, that seems to be football. whether it leads to a partial or full college deal, or even to the pros in some way. these parents will forego any sort of morals or ethics to protect their kids in these situations.

what will be very telling about people, in general, is if this argument wins an acquittal.


I think you described the small town appeal of football well. In small dying communities there are often few things cause the community to gather and feel good about itself like high school football can.

Sticking strictly to sports look at the celebration parades cities throw their professional sports teams when they win. They often draw hundreds of thousands and up to a million or more people to them. Every politician from the area appears. It's a huge community gathering and source of pride. It is the high school football equivalent for a small town on a major scale.
 
Well, maybe if women start shooting these mf'ers then society can move on from football. If that had been my daughter, and I had to watch those animals on that video, I would have went, bought a gun, and shot them dead in the middle of town. I think some old fashioned justice meted out by women is needed. Just my opinion. Most feminists believe we need "education".
 
Well, maybe if women start shooting these mf'ers then society can move on from football. If that had been my daughter, and I had to watch those animals on that video, I would have went, bought a gun, and shot them dead in the middle of town. I think some old fashioned justice meted out by women is needed. Just my opinion. Most feminists believe we need "education".
while I can, and do, agree wholeheartedly with your stance on the old fashioned justice, don't you consider it just a little hypocritical when you compare that to the position of others that are in favor of the 2nd Amendment?
 
I used a longer ban list than usual for obvious reasons. I am sure I left off a couple of names and will kick myself later.

-What is it with this football culture? Is it sports culture, or confined mostly to football? What is it about towns that glorify high school, college, and of course, pro, football players? I guess I am especially interested in the glorification of high school football players. Really? When I was in high school my friends and I sometimes went to the games (only when we had nothing better to do), but it wasn't even the biggest thing going on in our school, no less the rest of the town who couldn't have cared any less. In a town in NJ several high school football players raped a mentally handicapped girl with a baseball bat and another object, and the town rallied around them and were brutal about the victim.

-If you watch the video of some of what went on in Steubenville, you realize this went on for hours, the girl was unresponsive, in fact, unconscious the entire time, and everyone there laughed and cheered. She was also urinated on and ejaculated on. I can't think of anything they missed in expressing their hatred. I believe that if this had been a black male, it would be seen as the hate crime it so clearly was. However, if it had been a black woman it would not be seen as the hate crime it is, but in fact, the victim blaming would have been even worse. She would have almost definitely been accused of prostitution. Why is this not seen as a hate crime? This was a hate crime.

-I have seen written countless comments about the victim drinking. Firstly, I believe she was drugged. Because she had no memory of what had happened and had to piece it together, she did not go to the police in time. They could not run a tox screen. From the first time I read her statements, I was chilled, every word of it is highly consistent with Rophenol. However, I have not argued she was drugged because it is a difficult position. If you argue she was drugged, it is almost as you are saying that if she was not drugged and actually drank enough to be remain completely unconscious during an all-night relentless assault, then it's her fault. NOthing could be further from the truth, but she believes she was drugged, and so do I. For those who say otherwise - if the men had not taped their assaults, does anyone doubt they would have claimed it didn't happen? But they would admit to the rophenol right? Right?? That all aside, let's go forward on the theory that she was drunk and blacked out. When a guy drinks himself into unconsciousness, and a group of men take turns sticking a dildo in his ass, everyone asks how he could have let that happen right? What was he doing there in the first place? HOw could be drink so much? What did he expect to happen?

Oh, no, they don't. No one ever asks that because men are presumed to have the right to go wherever they want to go, drink whatever they want to drink, and to pass out a parties without having objects stuck into their bodies. HOw dare women have the same expectations? What do they think they are, human beings????

-What is happening with sex education in our country? Why is the concept of consent not being taught? Consent is not the absence of a no, it is the presence of a yes. An unconscious or totally inebriated person does not have the ability to give consent. An unconscious person cannot say no. This is very easy stuff. Why is it not being taught? IS it because too much of our sex education revolves around instilling into our youth the dangers of saying yes? Do we place far too much value on virginity, celibacy and abstinence? Is it possible we are not as a culture even equipped to deal with what a willing woman looks like? We are so afraid to go there, to the woman, the young girl especially, who gives enthusiastic consent? We are failing our youth, that is for certain.

I could go on and on, this case has brought up so much in my mind, that I am wondering about constantly. But something is wrong here. Something is very, very wrong here.
I think you bring up two different issues here. Sports and culture is the first. A crime no one would normally condone, is condoned when the towns football team is involved. That says something is seriously wrong about sport in our culture. James Michener wrote an excelent book on this topic that was probably his least popular book because he was very critical about the sports cutlure in our society.
 
while I can, and do, agree wholeheartedly with your stance on the old fashioned justice, don't you consider it just a little hypocritical when you compare that to the position of others that are in favor of the 2nd Amendment?

Do you mean because I am for gun control? If that is what you mean, yes it is hypocritical. I am tired of this shit. When I was in my 20's I would have cowered and been ashamed, and afraid to report it. If I was ever raped today, in my 40's, the man would not survive the incident for long. That is just how it is. We all change as time and events change us. So maybe someday I will change my mind on gun control, who knows, but the thing is? I just need a handgun to take out the trash in a case like this.
 
In many ways I hate using the language I am fluent in, because it is so easily mocked by misogynists. This is rape culture:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kia-makarechi/cnn-steubenville-coverage_b_2896948.html

I have no other words for it. CNN anchors weeping for the rapists and their lost futures, is rape culture. It is the culture, the widespread attitudes and beliefs, that allow for a group of human beings to watch another human being assaulted and degraded for hours without anyone thinking to stop it.

This was not something that happened to the assailants. Yes, their future has been greatly altered, but first of all, just as an aside, they are the kind of people who can do something like this, what else might those futures have held???? How many women were they going to rape in college??? How many women won't be raped now??? Why were these questions not considered? Their future was changed, if it was changed, because they made the decision to rape and degrade a human being. I am not at all convinced their futures were changed, since if they had gotten away with this, how can anyone read about what they did and then watch those tapes, and read their texts, and not know, know beyond any shadow of any doubt, that they would have raped again?? So just how promising were their futures??

And what of the victim's future? Everyone saw the assailants crying in court, but only after they were found guilty, before that they were doing a lot of smirking. Regardless, so we all know about that. How many know that the victim's mother said her daughter is afraid to go to school, stays alone in her room, and cries herself to sleep every night??

What of her future? She is disposable. The rapists are not.

This is rape culture.
Yea my heart pumps piss for the young men involved. First they'll only get juvi records. Regardless of the time they serve they won't hold felon records. I'm rather appalled by that decision. A felon record following these young men around for the rest of their lives would drive the point home what a horrific fuck up they made. So they'll spend a year in Juvi jail, probably go on after that to have relatively normal lives after having commited such a heinous act.
 
I think you bring up two different issues here. Sports and culture is the first. A crime no one would normally condone, is condoned when the towns football team is involved. That says something is seriously wrong about sport in our culture. James Michener wrote an excelent book on this topic that was probably his least popular book because he was very critical about the sports cutlure in our society.

I would like to read it. I just asked my brother about this, he happened to be talking about teaching 12 yo's to gamble as part of some fund raiser the school or little league was doing. ANd I said, well speaking of that what do you make of this Steubenville thing? He only knew vaguely of it, he told me he doesn't read about rape cases because he doesn't get it and it just gets him mad. (he has a daughter, but also a son). So I mentioned that I hope he is talking to my nephew about consent, because if fathers don't teach them, who does, their teammates? And I asked him if our dad had ever had this conversation with him and he said no never.

So we were not taught about consent in our home, yet neither of my brothers are rapists, and I honestly believe both would stop an attack like that even when they were younger. Both played sports. But my brother did say the football players are the worst. And I asked why, and he said he didn't know either but reminded me of a terrible thing that happened when we were in school, at our school. Three football players raped a girl up at the track, and it was said they used a lacrosse stick. They were suspended. I never forgot who they are either. But there was no social media then so it was all whisper whisper, no one knew anything, and the police were never notified (or at least, the boys were not charged). They suffered a suspension. The point being, it's so easy to say, oh the kids today, but I think this always happened. It may have been covered up more often, though I believe it is still covered up a lot.

But yeah, that doesn't answer anything about sports culture. I am going to look up this book.
 
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Well, maybe if women start shooting these mf'ers then society can move on from football. If that had been my daughter, and I had to watch those animals on that video, I would have went, bought a gun, and shot them dead in the middle of town. I think some old fashioned justice meted out by women is needed. Just my opinion. Most feminists believe we need "education".

You are too nice. I would have shot them in the balls and then hoped they lived through the experience. That said, your response is perfectly just in my opinion.
 
Yea my heart pumps piss for the young men involved. First they'll only get juvi records. Regardless of the time they serve they won't hold felon records. I'm rather appalled by that decision. A felon record following these young men around for the rest of their lives would drive the point home what a horrific fuck up they made. So they'll spend a year in Juvi jail, probably go on after that to have relatively normal lives after having commited such a heinous act.

I don't know how I feel about that. I really have never agreed with charging juveniles as adults. This case is so heinous when you look at what actually was done, for how long, and how they viewed it since they were kind enough to live-text and also tape it, it's hard to be objective.
 
I would like to read it. I just asked my brother about this, he happened to be talking about teaching 12 yo's to gamble as part of some fund raiser the school or little league was doing. ANd I said, well speaking of that what do you make of this Steubenville thing? He only knew vaguely of it, he told me he doesn't read about rape cases because he doesn't get it and it just gets him mad. (he has a daughter, but also a son). So I mentioned that I hope he is talking to my nephew about consent, because if fathers don't teach them, who does, their teammates? And I asked him if our dad had ever had this conversation with him and he said no never.

So we were not taught about consent in our home, yet neither of my brothers are rapists, and I honestly believe both would stop an attack like that even when they were younger. Both played sports. But my brother did say the football players are the worst. And I asked why, and he said he didn't know either but reminded me of a terrible thing that happened when we were in school, at our school. Three football players raped a girl up at the track, and it was said they used a lacrosse stick. They were suspended. I never forgot who they are either. But there was no social media then so it was all whisper whisper, no one knew anything, and the police were never notified. They suffered a suspension. The point being, it's so easy to say, oh the kids today, but I think this always happened. It may have been covered up more often, though I believe it is still covered up a lot.

But yeah, that doesn't answer anything about sports culture. I am going to look up this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Sports-America-James-Michener/dp/0345483065
 
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