SPIN METER:

[ekg]

it's amusingly ironic that the Libtardians and their Occupy movement that hate corporations and big company profits with such enmity that they actually tried to shut down NYC are 110% for forcing any and all Americans, who can barely afford food and medication at the same time, to fork over extra monies over to those very same big corporations they say they can't stand.

I'll give you that one... and goggle at the irony myself.

 

[ekg]

Yeah, because Medicare didn't cover them... seriously. They are covered. Even before this was passed the poor were covered.

.

no they aren't.. I promise you.

 

[ekg]

Which behavior are they trying to force you into by giving a tax credit for your kids? (Another question you should ask yourself is: Does this person think we should have credits for this...)

for these purposes,it doesn't matter if you do or don't agree with it.. it's the law, it's there.. how is it any different?

One insists you act a certain way, the other doesn't. Punishment taxes are fun. Do you think that the government is charging an extra tax to those who don't have kids or are they giving a credit so they can afford more food? Do you believe the government is telling you that you must have kids?

how it 'insists' you act or the behavior it is asking for, or what they are telling me.. all of that, isn't pertinent to this discussion.. another one perhaps, but not this one..

remove the 'feelings', the 'punishment',the hyperbole.. and the laws are the same..

you get a tax credit for kids.. you don't if you don't have any...
you get a tax credit for healthcare.. you don't if you don't have any..

and red star,hammer and sickle didn't bloom on our Flag.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Bottom line: you purchase a car but not a basic auto insurance, then you get some serious bills in the event of an accident.

Unlike a car, human beings eventually need some type of medical treatment that is not available OTC. If more money is in the general coffer, then the financial burden is LESS on the society when grandpa keels over or grandma wraps the family car around that tree. Or if you have a slew of folk taken to an emergeny room after a natural disaster, and have of them have no insurance to speak of.

The ONLY people who would pay this "tax" are those who can but refuse to get health insurance. If you can't afford it, then the gov't will assist you.

Flunkies for the insurance lobby are wailing like stuck pigs, yet they are NOT the ones to be affected. It's being thrown around that from 1 to 3% of the population will actually be affected by this tax...which is adjusted to the individual tax return (affordable).

If the insurance companies raise their rates, it's NOT because of AHA. Gee, what about all that "free market will take care of everything" rap? Nothing is impeding "competitve" rates, and what the hell is the reason to raise your rates ahead of the COLA?

Sorry to inform you neocons and teabaggers ( and some libertarian lunkheads), but it's the gov't by,for and of the people....NOT the private corporation alone.

Did you eve hear of 'tough love'...? Do you know what it means ?

Did you ever hear of the phrase, 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime'?.....

Translation: Bravo cannot refute or disprove what I just posted, so he just babbles som inane saying that only makes sense to his intoxicated mind.

Back to the barstool with you, Bravo.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by General Buck Turgidson
The mandate isn't about covering the poor and never was. The mandate is the flip side of the ban on recessions, the ban on denials based on pre-existing conditions, and the ban of lifetime and annual coverage limits. It's about getting healthy people to buy insurance and to expand the risk pool on the healthy end to offset the expansion of the risk pool on the unhealthy end.

The exchanges and subsidies are about covering the poor and lower income folks

Again, poor and lower income folks were already covered. This has never been about covering the poor, although it seemed that was the argument when it was being passed.

Well, you forget that the right wingers successfully fought against any healthcare reform that directly addressed the lower incom, working poor and poor along with basic problems with the insurance companies in the first place....the ACA is the result of what was pulled out of that fight....and their incurance company masters are even bitching about that! I suggest you look up the testimonies of Wendell Potter and Dr. Peelo...then you'll have a better perspective as to what has been adchieved. Then check into how Romney talked AGAINST the label of a tax hike when he introduced his healthcare reform in his state as governor for years...but now to kiss the asses of the likes of Norquist and Rove and contradict himself.

 

[Damocles]

You're conflating the individual mandate and the Affordable Care Act. The individual mandate is only a small part of the Affordable Care Act. It isn't the whole shebang.

The ACA overall is (in part) about ensuring access to healthcare for poor and low income people, but the individual mandate isn't the mechanism by which it achieves that goal. That's the exchanges/subsidies and Medicaid expansion.

So, no, the individual mandate was never ever ever about the poor and, like the same thing we have here in MA, was always about free riders and expanding the risk pool on the healthy end.

Now, of course you can't dispute any of this so you resort to your usual bullshit faux quotes, generalities and personal projections. Par for the course, really.

No, you are conflating my point that the argument in support of Obamatax changed its tone after the ruling.

Pre-ruling the argument was to "help the poor"... after the ruling it was to get those nasty "freeloaders" who haven't been contributing their share, those healthy bastiges going without! both arguments are simply trying to support the same craptacular bill. I then noted that Obama turns to his same old rusty argument where he finds a group he thinks he can create some division through envy and starts to demonize them...

He sends out Pelosi to talk about the "freeriders" and begins to demonize a segment of the population he thinks he can just do without.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

you don't have to buy a car.. and you don't HAVE to buy health insurance.. but you won't get a credit at the end of the year if you don't.

and even if you own a car,you also don't HAVE to buy auto insurance... but when you get caught not having it,you'll get a fine.. same with medical insurance, you don' HAVE to buy it, but when you get caught not having it, you'll get a fine... or a tax, whichever suits you...

and none of that.. will end the United States as we know it.

But do people have to pay a "tax" for not having a car?

 

[apple0154]

a 7 year old is dx'd with leukemia, his parents have no healthcare, nor any money... but they make $1000 more a month than medicaid allows them to make.. who pays for his treatment? or do we just say "sorry.. Go to pink-o-commie France if you want healthcare"

a 28 year old woman notices a lump under her arm.. but doesn't have healthcare so she lets it go... 2 years later, in her prime 'worker bee' years, she's dx'd with end stage breast cancer and her 'end of life' costs are INSANELY high.. she still gets the care because it's what we do..besides the loss of the worker, besides the loss to her parents, who pays for her care?

No, not everyone owns a car..so not everyone has to be buy health insurance.. BUT every one of us WILL need a doctor, or many, one day or for many months.. in our lifetime... what would you do? not allow anyone the benefit of medical services unless they had a check ready? How do you fix what's ailing us?

this has nothing to with 'if you can't do the time".. because 'sick' doesn't care what laws you follow, or how well you eat or exercise, it doesn't care what color you are or how much money you have.. it doesn't care whether you're born in the United States or China..

but if you're born in China, you get treated... the United States? eh, we lose our fucking mind at the thought..

That's what some folks are unable to grasp. Preventative health care saves a fortune. As far as I understand insurance companies are now obliged to pay for check-ups. Many people, being the way they are, will not spend money for a check-up if they don't feel ill even if it's just a few dollars. Others put off going hoping symptoms will disappear.

 

[Howey]

Many just pay cash...

I'd like to see some kind of proof for that. Cuz it really doesn't seem like good business sense. Do the CEO's of Human, BC/BS, et al, pay cash for their insurance?

Yeah, because Medicare didn't cover them... seriously. They are covered. Even before this was passed the poor were covered.

Please don't trot out that old Dicksee story about ER's providing all the free healthcare people want. They don't. You pay for it.

 

[Granule]

Gotta love Mittens. Now he's saying it's not a tax!

You go there, Mr. Etch-a-Sketch!

Gotta love Hussein, even more. He's the creep that signed off on this shit pile.

 

[christiefan915]

It is a freeloader penalty and Mitt Romney included it in the Mass. healthcare act.

He was for it before he was against it.

 

[christiefan915]

a 7 year old is dx'd with leukemia, his parents have no healthcare, nor any money... but they make $1000 more a month than medicaid allows them to make.. who pays for his treatment? or do we just say "sorry.. Go to pink-o-commie France if you want healthcare"

a 28 year old woman notices a lump under her arm.. but doesn't have healthcare so she lets it go... 2 years later, in her prime 'worker bee' years, she's dx'd with end stage breast cancer and her 'end of life' costs are INSANELY high.. she still gets the care because it's what we do..besides the loss of the worker, besides the loss to her parents, who pays for her care?

No, not everyone owns a car..so not everyone has to be buy health insurance.. BUT every one of us WILL need a doctor, or many, one day or for many months.. in our lifetime... what would you do? not allow anyone the benefit of medical services unless they had a check ready? How do you fix what's ailing us?

this has nothing to with 'if you can't do the time".. because 'sick' doesn't care what laws you follow, or how well you eat or exercise, it doesn't care what color you are or how much money you have.. it doesn't care whether you're born in the United States or China..

but if you're born in China, you get treated... the United States? eh, we lose our fucking mind at the thought..

And to my understanding, "free" hospital care for the poor isn't really free. They get a bill for services and the opportunity to negotiate the price by paying in full or paying in installments if there's no government assistance. Then if they can't pay fast enough, or at all, their credit record suffers.

 

[ekg]

But do people have to pay a "tax" for not having a car?

nope.. not at all.

 

[Damocles]

I'd like to see some kind of proof for that. Cuz it really doesn't seem like good business sense. Do the CEO's of Human, BC/BS, et al, pay cash for their insurance?



Please don't trot out that old Dicksee story about ER's providing all the free healthcare people want. They don't. You pay for it.

You are clearly being deliberately 'dense' on this particular subject... Even Dixie isn't arguing that it's "free" to everybody, only free to those who get the care. And you are clearly conflating care and insurance. They are not the same thing.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

nope.. not at all.

My point exactly, so that obviously shoots down the attempted comparison.
Thanks

 

[Howey]

You are clearly being deliberately 'dense' on this particular subject...

Far from it. I'm injecting common sense into the equation. Something not often soon in discussions with the right.

Even Dixie isn't arguing that it's "free" to everybody, only free to those who get the care.

That's the problem. It's not even "free" to those who get the care. Taxpayers pay for it. At a larger rate than with Obamacare.

And you are clearly conflating care and insurance.

No. I was responding to someone who said the rich pay for their care out of pocket rather than carrying healthcare insurance. I don't believe that's a true statement. I do, however, believe (opinion) that top staff of healthcare companies don't pay for their insurance at all...they get theirs for free.

 

[ekg]

That's what some folks are unable to grasp. Preventative health care saves a fortune. As far as I understand insurance companies are now obliged to pay for check-ups. Many people, being the way they are, will not spend money for a check-up if they don't feel ill even if it's just a few dollars. Others put off going hoping symptoms will disappear.

that's the scariest aspect of being uninsured.. I know this, because I am uninsured.. I am lucky enough to have a very awesome 'low cost' walk-in clinic that I can use for ear aches, sinus infections, acne breakout for the teen..easy stuff... But I should have had a mammogram by now,I haven't had a pelvic since my 16yro was 2, my cholesterol needs to be checked and since we have kidney issues in my family I should have BP and kidney functions blood work.. well, and my family has a whole host of auto immune diseases and it would be awesome to have federal bc/bs like my mother to get a handle on them.. but these things are out of my reach because the out of pocket expense is more than I can cover.

my husband broke his back in 1997.. he has his own hosts of issues.. but for the most part, he's extremely healthy.. but one wrong turn and...? he can be laid up and out of work for months..

before Obamacare, neither of us could get insurance because of pre-existing conditions... .. now, while the those aren't an issue, the costs still are.. we simply can't afford it.

By pre-2006 standards, we're doing pretty freaking awesome financially.. We're making double what were back then, but by today's standard where 'goods' and 'utilities' and 'rents' have tripled,we're just breaking even each month.. Yet we're still above the line when it comes to getting any kind of 'medicaid' or even share of cost state insurance. Here's the rub.. I've never met a person, graduate degree or not.. who works harder than my husband.. He's 'construction' and out in the Fla sun day in and day out giving such exemplar work that he's in demand when there is work to be done.. I bust my ass 5 days a week, granted, not as hard as him, nor as long.. but I'm a business owner who employs another person..

we're not 'lazy'.. we don't 'suck off others'.. we, for the most part, abide by the law..(hubby may, or may not partake in some Amsterdam tea now and again ) we pay our taxes, we've raised two awesome kids.. hell, we even feed the neighbor's pregnant cat because the neighbor is in jail and we felt bad for her...Hubby's a red-blooded American who hunts,fishes and watches nascar with the best of them..but we look around and ask .. What the fuck? Don't we count?

Ya know, to all of the ppl bitching about 'obamacare'.. the people like me and mine.. and really, this is who this law is for, because there will always be lazies who suck off the tit no matter what you do about it..rich and poor alike, there will always be moochers,but for people like me and mine, this whole thing is about making it just a little bit easier for us to get to the fucking doctor when that tickle in the back of our throats just won't go away, when the lump under our arms seems to be getting bigger and more tender, when that spot on our nose where the FLA sun shines on each and every day we're out working and sweating our balls off starts to get a little strange looking with it's irregular edges..

the amp'd up rhetoric is all about those 'undeserving' sloats who will get something for free and those are all anyone is thinking of, while too many others in need are being forgotten... We've begged and pleaded and died for just a taste of the pie labeled 'Health insurance' only to be slapped away because of PE-conditions or lack of enough money to cover $2000 a month premiums... and no one's cared or listened or helped..

or the vitriol is all about a 'tax' ... the horror! a tax.. Grover is shitting himself! If you can afford insurance and don't get it, you'll be assessed $685 a year!! Jumping Jesus, you're taxed more to pay for the paper your congressman uses to wipe his ass with.

When we were told "Just tell your doctor you'll pay him with a chicken, doctors are very sympathetic people" as an actual counter-offer to 'obamacare'.. to me, it became clear.. people who are insured, don't really 'get it'... and they don't really care.. they just don't care enough to take this shit seriously. People are dying in the United States Of America because they can't afford to see a doctor. If it wasn't so serious, it would be hilarious. How can we claim to be the greatest of all when that sad simple fact is so true for MILLIONS of people?

As a liberal, the mandate horrifies me.. how can it not. and after the Bush years, with his EXTREME rights violations.. how could I possible be sitting here arguing for a mandate..? Because the counter off was "Pay your doctor with a chicken".. even today, the Right doesn't have a 'replace' plan.. the only plan to replace Obamacare is with chickens.

Obamacare is far from my ideal healthcare plan.. but it's better than raising chickens to pay for my pap smear..(which even I could, my city doesn't allow farm animals..so I'm screwed on that as well).. So I'm ok with the tax, as long as it helps me have a fair and fighting chance to get treated by a doctor in this country instead of WebMD.

 

[Damocles]

Far from it. I'm injecting common sense into the equation. Something not often soon in discussions with the right.




That's the problem. It's not even "free" to those who get the care. Taxpayers pay for it. At a larger rate than with Obamacare.

Those who get the care pay nothing. Taxpayers pay for it... that's his point. As I said, you are being deliberately obtuse at this point.

No. I was responding to someone who said the rich pay for their care out of pocket rather than carrying healthcare insurance. I don't believe that's a true statement. I do, however, believe (opinion) that top staff of healthcare companies don't pay for their insurance at all...they get theirs for free.

No, you said you doubt they pay for their insurance in cash, and I pointed out that they pay for their care in cash (some with monthly payments.. call them the "less rich")... You conflated insurance with care. And many of the rich do pay directly, you can actually negotiate a better price when you are paying for it. And no, they don't get it "free" any more than the poor, the company pays for it rather than taxpayers but somebody pays.

Anyway your argument that "the rich" don't pay for their care is that "this group" has insurance so none of the rich pay for care?

 

[Rune]

that's the scariest aspect of being uninsured.. I know this, because I am uninsured.. I am lucky enough to have a very awesome 'low cost' walk-in clinic that I can use for ear aches, sinus infections, acne breakout for the teen..easy stuff... But I should have had a mammogram by now,I haven't had a pelvic since my 16yro was 2, my cholesterol needs to be checked and since we have kidney issues in my family I should have BP and kidney functions blood work.. well, and my family has a whole host of auto immune diseases and it would be awesome to have federal bc/bs like my mother to get a handle on them.. but these things are out of my reach because the out of pocket expense is more than I can cover.

my husband broke his back in 1997.. he has his own hosts of issues.. but for the most part, he's extremely healthy.. but one wrong turn and...? he can be laid up and out of work for months..

before Obamacare, neither of us could get insurance because of pre-existing conditions... .. now, while the those aren't an issue, the costs still are.. we simply can't afford it.

By pre-2006 standards, we're doing pretty freaking awesome financially.. We're making double what were back then, but by today's standard where 'goods' and 'utilities' and 'rents' have tripled,we're just breaking even each month.. Yet we're still above the line when it comes to getting any kind of 'medicaid' or even share of cost state insurance. Here's the rub.. I've never met a person, graduate degree or not.. who works harder than my husband.. He's 'construction' and out in the Fla sun day in and day out giving such exemplar work that he's in demand when there is work to be done.. I bust my ass 5 days a week, granted, not as hard as him, nor as long.. but I'm a business owner who employs another person..

we're not 'lazy'.. we don't 'suck off others'.. we, for the most part, abide by the law..(hubby may, or may not partake in some Amsterdam tea now and again ) we pay our taxes, we've raised two awesome kids.. hell, we even feed the neighbor's pregnant cat because the neighbor is in jail and we felt bad for her...Hubby's a red-blooded American who hunts,fishes and watches nascar with the best of them..but we look around and ask .. What the fuck? Don't we count?

Ya know, to all of the ppl bitching about 'obamacare'.. the people like me and mine.. and really, this is who this law is for, because there will always be lazies who suck off the tit no matter what you do about it..rich and poor alike, there will always be moochers,but for people like me and mine, this whole thing is about making it just a little bit easier for us to get to the fucking doctor when that tickle in the back of our throats just won't go away, when the lump under our arms seems to be getting bigger and more tender, when that spot on our nose where the FLA sun shines on each and every day we're out working and sweating our balls off starts to get a little strange looking with it's irregular edges..

the amp'd up rhetoric is all about those 'undeserving' sloats who will get something for free and those are all anyone is thinking of, while too many others in need are being forgotten... We've begged and pleaded and died for just a taste of the pie labeled 'Health insurance' only to be slapped away because of PE-conditions or lack of enough money to cover $2000 a month premiums... and no one's cared or listened or helped..

or the vitriol is all about a 'tax' ... the horror! a tax.. Grover is shitting himself! If you can afford insurance and don't get it, you'll be assessed $685 a year!! Jumping Jesus, you're taxed more to pay for the paper your congressman uses to wipe his ass with.

When we were told "Just tell your doctor you'll pay him with a chicken, doctors are very sympathetic people" as an actual counter-offer to 'obamacare'.. to me, it became clear.. people who are insured, don't really 'get it'... and they don't really care.. they just don't care enough to take this shit seriously. People are dying in the United States Of America because they can't afford to see a doctor. If it wasn't so serious, it would be hilarious. How can we claim to be the greatest of all when that sad simple fact is so true for MILLIONS of people?

As a liberal, the mandate horrifies me.. how can it not. and after the Bush years, with his EXTREME rights violations.. how could I possible be sitting here arguing for a mandate..? Because the counter off was "Pay your doctor with a chicken".. even today, the Right doesn't have a 'replace' plan.. the only plan to replace Obamacare is with chickens.

Obamacare is far from my ideal healthcare plan.. but it's better than raising chickens to pay for my pap smear..(which even I could, my city doesn't allow farm animals..so I'm screwed on that as well).. So I'm ok with the tax, as long as it helps me have a fair and fighting chance to get treated by a doctor in this country instead of WebMD.

View attachment 1697

Awesome post, thanks. Now if just one rightwinger would read and believe it, or give a single fuck...

 

[christiefan915]

that's the scariest aspect of being uninsured.. I know this, because I am uninsured.. I am lucky enough to have a very awesome 'low cost' walk-in clinic that I can use for ear aches, sinus infections, acne breakout for the teen..easy stuff... But I should have had a mammogram by now,I haven't had a pelvic since my 16yro was 2, my cholesterol needs to be checked and since we have kidney issues in my family I should have BP and kidney functions blood work.. well, and my family has a whole host of auto immune diseases and it would be awesome to have federal bc/bs like my mother to get a handle on them.. but these things are out of my reach because the out of pocket expense is more than I can cover.

my husband broke his back in 1997.. he has his own hosts of issues.. but for the most part, he's extremely healthy.. but one wrong turn and...? he can be laid up and out of work for months..

before Obamacare, neither of us could get insurance because of pre-existing conditions... .. now, while the those aren't an issue, the costs still are.. we simply can't afford it.

By pre-2006 standards, we're doing pretty freaking awesome financially.. We're making double what were back then, but by today's standard where 'goods' and 'utilities' and 'rents' have tripled,we're just breaking even each month.. Yet we're still above the line when it comes to getting any kind of 'medicaid' or even share of cost state insurance. Here's the rub.. I've never met a person, graduate degree or not.. who works harder than my husband.. He's 'construction' and out in the Fla sun day in and day out giving such exemplar work that he's in demand when there is work to be done.. I bust my ass 5 days a week, granted, not as hard as him, nor as long.. but I'm a business owner who employs another person..

we're not 'lazy'.. we don't 'suck off others'.. we, for the most part, abide by the law..(hubby may, or may not partake in some Amsterdam tea now and again ) we pay our taxes, we've raised two awesome kids.. hell, we even feed the neighbor's pregnant cat because the neighbor is in jail and we felt bad for her...Hubby's a red-blooded American who hunts,fishes and watches nascar with the best of them..but we look around and ask .. What the fuck? Don't we count?

Ya know, to all of the ppl bitching about 'obamacare'.. the people like me and mine.. and really, this is who this law is for, because there will always be lazies who suck off the tit no matter what you do about it..rich and poor alike, there will always be moochers,but for people like me and mine, this whole thing is about making it just a little bit easier for us to get to the fucking doctor when that tickle in the back of our throats just won't go away, when the lump under our arms seems to be getting bigger and more tender, when that spot on our nose where the FLA sun shines on each and every day we're out working and sweating our balls off starts to get a little strange looking with it's irregular edges..

the amp'd up rhetoric is all about those 'undeserving' sloats who will get something for free and those are all anyone is thinking of, while too many others in need are being forgotten... We've begged and pleaded and died for just a taste of the pie labeled 'Health insurance' only to be slapped away because of PE-conditions or lack of enough money to cover $2000 a month premiums... and no one's cared or listened or helped..

or the vitriol is all about a 'tax' ... the horror! a tax.. Grover is shitting himself! If you can afford insurance and don't get it, you'll be assessed $685 a year!! Jumping Jesus, you're taxed more to pay for the paper your congressman uses to wipe his ass with.

When we were told "Just tell your doctor you'll pay him with a chicken, doctors are very sympathetic people" as an actual counter-offer to 'obamacare'.. to me, it became clear.. people who are insured, don't really 'get it'... and they don't really care.. they just don't care enough to take this shit seriously. People are dying in the United States Of America because they can't afford to see a doctor. If it wasn't so serious, it would be hilarious. How can we claim to be the greatest of all when that sad simple fact is so true for MILLIONS of people?

As a liberal, the mandate horrifies me.. how can it not. and after the Bush years, with his EXTREME rights violations.. how could I possible be sitting here arguing for a mandate..? Because the counter off was "Pay your doctor with a chicken".. even today, the Right doesn't have a 'replace' plan.. the only plan to replace Obamacare is with chickens.

Obamacare is far from my ideal healthcare plan.. but it's better than raising chickens to pay for my pap smear..(which even I could, my city doesn't allow farm animals..so I'm screwed on that as well).. So I'm ok with the tax, as long as it helps me have a fair and fighting chance to get treated by a doctor in this country instead of WebMD.

View attachment 1697

Fabulous post, ekg. I'm so glad you'll be getting all the benefits you and your family deserve as the plan goes into effect.