Some questions: Question #3.

[cawacko]

Well said. Those countries who tax their citizens but use the money to provide them with good public transportation, free educations including college, health care, child care, and that mandate generous paid time off consistently rank in the world's happiest populations.

It would seem that conservatives suspect happiness is a gift from the Devil and want to make sure it doesn't happen here. lol

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming your talking about European countries. The trade off there is they have weak growth, slowing productivity and demographic issues. Europe is falling further behind the U.S. and China economically.

I can only project the answer as to how would Americans feel to having a lower living standard in return for living more like the Europeans, but my guess is a fair number wouldn't be happy with it. It's not impossible, but it's hard to go backwards once you've become accustomed to something.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

It's obviously true that despite our potential economic power,
other, more modern democracies have left us in the dust in terms of quality of life.

Our ancient constitution may not give us a viable way to recover from this.

The errors made in it's adoption by the founders
allowed this situation to manifest itself over nearly a quarter of a millennium.
Now, we have no practical way to fix it.

The constitution requires a level of consensus to change things
that we may never again achieve in this starkly polarized nation.

It is the deficiencies of our constitution that allowed people
as incompatible as we are as a population
to create the hopeless clusterfuck we have now.

Kamala Harris can prevent intensifying the tinderbox situation
that Trump would undoubtedly allow to explode completely,
but with the restrictions she faces presented by the very format of America itself,
can she or anybody else actually improve things?

Do the serious, intelligent people among us still really think that America--
in its present format--
is still workable,

or are we just too afraid to recognize that it isn't?

I'm good with radical change.
I'm good with partition.
I don't think we have enough people who'd recognize that if,
as I believe,
it happens to really be required.

 

[cawacko]

It's obviously true that despite our potential economic power,
other, more modern democracies have left us in the dust in terms of quality of life.

Our ancient constitution may not give us a viable way to recover from this.

The errors made in it's adoption by the founders
allowed this situation to manifest itself over nearly a quarter of a millennium.
Now, we have no practical way to fix it.

The constitution requires a level of consensus to change things
that we may never again achieve in this starkly polarized nation.

It is the deficiencies of our constitution that allowed people
as incompatible as we are as a population
to create the hopeless clusterfuck we have now.

Kamala Harris can prevent intensifying the tinderbox situation
that Trump would undoubtedly allow to explode completely,
but with the restrictions she faces presented by the very format of America itself,
can she or anybody else actually improve things?

Do the serious, intelligent people among us still really think that America--
in its present format--
is still workable,

or are we just too afraid to recognize that it isn't?

I'm good with radical change.
I'm good with partition.
I don't think we have enough people who'd recognize that if,
as I believe,
it happens to really be required.

For the sake of discussion let me ask this. If America is so bad and so unworkable why do so many people continue to come here? And specifically we'll talk about the educated people who have options to pretty much go anywhere. Over half of start ups that have a $1b valuation have a foreignor as a founder.

You come to the Silicon Valley and it's full of immigrants. Many of these people could go anywhere. Why here?

 

[Althea]

Well said. Those countries who tax their citizens but use the money to provide them with good public transportation, free educations including college, health care, child care, and that mandate generous paid time off consistently rank in the world's happiest populations.

It would seem that conservatives suspect happiness is a gift from the Devil and want to make sure it doesn't happen here. lol

They would be better off admitting to that instead of the fact that the reason we have none of what you mentioned is that the wealthy own our govt.. They want to pay no taxes, increase profits by offshoring labor, and will fight to the death to keep our infrastructure crumbling.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

They would be better off admitting to that instead of the fact that the reason we have none of what you mentioned is that the wealthy own our govt.. They want to pay no taxes, increase profits by offshoring labor, and will fight to the death to keep our infrastructure crumbling.

Absolutely true. After all, it's America where if only WE work hard enough, we too can be billionaires. It's so UNFAIR to tax us then. **eyeroll**

I guess all those white males with only h.s. educations who vote for Trump just aren't working hard enough.

 

[Yakuda]

Okay…it is reasonable to ask that I “define” certain parts of what I am addressing in these posts.



When I talk about leisure time…I am not talking about not working. I am talking about not attending to the “earning a living” aspect of our lives.



Obviously, mowing the lawn, trimming the hedges, and pruning the trees; cleaning the attic, cellar, or garage is a hell of a lot of work…but that is a reasonable part of the stuff that is done during what I refer to as “leisure time.”



The work that is done in order to survive…in order to “earn a living” is the opposite of “leisure time”…no matter that, often more arduous that the non-leisure time work, is being done.



Leisure time is that time when an individual is not doing “earning a living.” It often is just laying around doing very little; or watching TV; or playing golf, tennis, fishing or such. It is the time spent enjoying life…even if it involves hard work…adding a deck to the back patio; replacing worn windows, painting a house or such.



What I am essentially saying is that since so much mechanical help has come into the workforce…most people should be able to do the leisure time…instead of the “earning a living” time.

Yakuda, if this explanation does not do the job...come back at me. Don't give me a break on this. I want people reading this to understand where I am coming from.

It's fine. In this context "leisure" will mean time spent on anything but working a job for sustenance. Thank you

 

[NiftyNiblick]

For the sake of discussion let me ask this. If America is so bad and so unworkable why do so many people continue to come here? And specifically we'll talk about the educated people who have options to pretty much go anywhere. Over half of start ups that have a $1b valuation have a foreignor as a founder.

You come to the Silicon Valley and it's full of immigrants. Many of these people could go anywhere. Why here?

First, people are anxious to come here from third world countries, not from The Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden.
We don't have a problem with people pouring in from the Northern Border, do we?

Second, America is still a great place to live if you're on rock solid financial ground
and have a good education.

What is America no longer?
A land of opportunity if you're entering at the ground floor and seeking upward social mobility.
Hands off free enterprise used to work for that.
In modern times, it's a hopeless impediment.

There's no urban manufacturing base for one to get started as a union factory worker.
That's what created the so-called "middle class," as much as I hate that term.

Today, an active government has to help people get started,
and conservatives do all in their power to prevent that.
That specifically includes many who'd benefit tremendously from it.

 

[Kafka]

I can only project the answer as to how would Americans feel to having a lower living standard in return for living more like the Europeans, but my guess is a fair number wouldn't be happy with it. It's not impossible, but it's hard to go backwards once you've become accustomed to something.

It isn't a matter of going backwards. In fact MOST Americans lives would improve if we as a nation went the European model. People wouldn't live every day in fear that one medical issue stands between them and bankruptcy. Etc.

The real thing that keeps Americans from embracing that kind of lifestyle is that they have convinced themselves that they CAN do better. Just take off the guardrails and they just KNOW they can go faster and further with no help.

Unfortunately few of them succeed.

It's a uniquely American view that we don't need anyone's help at all...not even our fellow Americans. It's that pioneer "spirit" we blather on about so much. But in reality it just means we have millions of people straving, millions more unable to get adequate healthcare, exploding homelessness etc.

Not that Europe has solved everything. Sure they do have their problems. But there's got to be some middle ground for America to understand that things like healthcare are NOT "earned". They are a basic human right.

 

[cawacko]

First, people are anxious to come here from third world countries, not from The Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden.
We don't have a problem with people pouring in from the Northern Border, do we?

Second, America is still a great place to live if you're on rock solid financial ground
and have a good education.

What is America no longer?
A land of opportunity if you're entering at the ground floor and seeking upward social mobility.
Hands off free enterprise used to work for that.
In modern times, it's a hopeless impediment.

There's no urban manufacturing base for one to get started as a union factory worker.
That's what created the so-called "middle class," as much as I hate that term.

Today, an active government has to help people get started,
and conservatives do all in their power to prevent that.
That specifically includes many who'd benefit tremendously from it.

The three countries you referenced have a combined population of maybe California. I don't know how it is in Mass but in California the largest number of immigrants come from China, Indian and the Philippines. You go to the Silicon Valley to these leading tech firms and there are large number of Asian workers. You have (upper middle class/rich) cities in the Silicon Valley with large Indian and Asian populations.

You don't see many of these people going to the Netherlands, Sweden or Norway. Not the same level of opportunity.

I'm 51, so about 15 - 30 years younger than many posters here. You (Boomers) talk a lot about manufacturing jobs in that when you were young it was probably quite normal for someone to go work at a factory. Times change and with technology and globalization that's just not really the case anymore.

I admit to living in a bubble. In a certain sense this is the world you love, highly educated and driven people working in the tech space (and now AI). These folks don't talk about how much vacation time they can get. They talk about changing the world and what are their stock options worth.

I realize that's not everyone's reality (and that's a good thing). But it's the economic engine that powers America.

 

[cawacko]

It isn't a matter of going backwards. In fact MOST Americans lives would improve if we as a nation went the European model. People wouldn't live every day in fear that one medical issue stands between them and bankruptcy. Etc.

The real thing that keeps Americans from embracing that kind of lifestyle is that they have convinced themselves that they CAN do better. Just take off the guardrails and they just KNOW they can go faster and further with no help.

Unfortunately few of them succeed.

It's a uniquely American view that we don't need anyone's help at all...not even our fellow Americans. It's that pioneer "spirit" we blather on about so much. But in reality it just means we have millions of people straving, millions more unable to get adequate healthcare, exploding homelessness etc.

Not that Europe has solved everything. Sure they do have their problems. But there's got to be some middle ground for America to understand that things like healthcare are NOT "earned". They are a basic human right.

I don't mean to repeat myself but Europe has slow growth, decreasing productivity and demographic issues. They are falling further behind the U.S. and China economically. That's not really a great recipe going forward. And if we (America) decided we should accept lower living standards in exchange for a more European lifestyle who is going to replace us on the world stage?

We see Trump and some of his supporters calling for a much more isolationist America. I understand not wanting to repeat the mistakes of Iraq but when has isolationism worked for us? But falling behind economically prevents us from being a leader globally and I don't think it's safe to say leaving that role to a country like China is in our best interests.

 

[Joe]

Living a gratifying and content life isn't related to work or leisure time. It has to do with coming to terms with your mortality.

When you have a healthy relationship in your soul with the life cycle you will live a much richer life.

This is why so many of the godless left are so miserable. They hate the idea that this is all there is and the clock is ticking fast. This creates all types of problems from family relations to depression.

This may sound overly simple but I am a firm believer in Occam's Razor.

 

[Ross Dolan]

First, people are anxious to come here from third world countries, not from The Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden.
We don't have a problem with people pouring in from the Northern Border, do we?

Second, America is still a great place to live if you're on rock solid financial ground
and have a good education.

What is America no longer?
A land of opportunity if you're entering at the ground floor and seeking upward social mobility.
Hands off free enterprise used to work for that.
In modern times, it's a hopeless impediment.

There's no urban manufacturing base for one to get started as a union factory worker.
That's what created the so-called "middle class," as much as I hate that term.

Today, an active government has to help people get started,
and conservatives do all in their power to prevent that.
That specifically includes many who'd benefit tremendously from it.

Great response, Nifty. Great.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Living a gratifying and content life isn't related to work or leisure time. It has to do with coming to terms with your mortality.

You should come to terms with the fact that "living a gratifying and content life" OFTEN IS related to work and/or leisure time.

"Coming to terms with your mortality may play a factor, but certainly is not the factor with the importance you seem to be giving it.

When you have a healthy relationship in your soul with the life cycle you will live a much richer life.

Perhaps. All sorts of things MAY contribute to the "richness" of an individuals life.

This is why so many of the godless left are so miserable.

Stop that horseshit, Joe. It does not become you in any way. You seem to be saying there is a GOD. Do you know that to be so...or are you just guessing? (HINT: YOU ARE JUST GUESSING.)

They hate the idea that this is all there is and the clock is ticking fast. This creates all types of problems from family relations to depression.

Which, in your mind, American conservatives do not.

Why not save this shit for a thread where it applies?

This may sound overly simple but I am a firm believer in Occam's Razor.

Interesting.

But for the record, I consider Occam Razor and Pascal's Wager to be the two most useless philosophical proposals ever offered.

 

[Kafka]

I don't mean to repeat myself but Europe has slow growth, decreasing productivity and demographic issues.

I've spent too much time in industry. The demand for non-stop growth seems to be one of the problems with our system. But economic ebbs and flows occur for all countries. I don't see it as a systemic issue between the two systems. On those occasions in which I worked closely with European business partners for product development I've found them to be as good business people as Americans. The key difference is that the people don't live in terror of losing access to healthcare because the employer had a bad quarter.

They are falling further behind the U.S. and China economically. That's not really a great recipe going forward. And if we (America) decided we should accept lower living standards in exchange for a more European lifestyle who is going to replace us on the world stage?

Why does it need to be an either-or? Why can't the richest nation in the history of this planet not afford to keep their people at a minimum humane level of commonweal?

We see Trump and some of his supporters calling for a much more isolationist America. I understand not wanting to repeat the mistakes of Iraq but when has isolationism worked for us? But falling behind economically prevents us from being a leader globally and I don't think it's safe to say leaving that role to a country like China is in our best interests.

Our moving to a more humane form of Capitalism does not necessarily mean that China becomes the world leader.

 

[Kafka]

Living a gratifying and content life isn't related to work or leisure time. It has to do with coming to terms with your mortality.

When you have a healthy relationship in your soul with the life cycle you will live a much richer life.

This is why so many of the godless left are so miserable. They hate the idea that this is all there is and the clock is ticking fast. This creates all types of problems from family relations to depression.

This may sound overly simple but I am a firm believer in Occam's Razor.

You are correct. It is overly simplistic.

 

[Joe]

You are correct. It is overly simplistic.

My observation is people who come to god improve their lives in almost every way.

Some here should give it a shot.

 

[Joe]

You should come to terms with the fact that "living a gratifying and content life" OFTEN IS related to work and/or leisure time.

"Coming to terms with your mortality may play a factor, but certainly is not the factor with the importance you seem to be giving it.




Perhaps. All sorts of things MAY contribute to the "richness" of an individuals life.



Stop that horseshit, Joe. It does not become you in any way. You seem to be saying there is a GOD. Do you know that to be so...or are you just guessing? (HINT: YOU ARE JUST GUESSING.)

They hate the idea that this is all there is and the clock is ticking fast. This creates all types of problems from family relations to depression.

Which, in your mind, American conservatives do not.

Why not save this shit for a thread where it applies?


Interesting.

But for the record, I consider Occam Razor and Pascal's Wager to be the two most useless philosophical proposals ever offered.

Geez you sure got hostile fast.

All this time I thought you were presenting a kinder and gentler thread.

People who have no faith simply do not know what they do not know. And go to great lengths to prove themselves correct.

I am not inclined to argue about it. Carry on.

 

[Kafka]

My observation is people who come to god improve their lives in almost every way.

Didn't work out that way for me. But if it works for you, then enjoy it! Good for you.

Some here should give it a shot.

Did. For about 35 years. Didn't really fit that well for me.

 

[Joe]

Didn't work out that way for me. But if it works for you, then enjoy it! Good for you.



Did. For about 35 years. Didn't really fit that well for me.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

In what ways was your faith detrimental to your well being?

Not being a smart ass I am genuinely curious.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Geez you sure got hostile fast.

That was not hostile...at all.

All this time I thought you were presenting a kinder and gentler thread.

I hope this is. But that does not mean I cannot disagree with what is being offered...and I disagree with what you said. I thought I did so reasonably and courteously. If I didn't...I apologize.

People who have no faith simply do not know what they do not know.

If by "People who have no faith" you mean "People who have made a blind guess that a GOD exists...and further blind guesses about its nature"...I guess that makes some sense.
I KNOW what I KNOW...and I KNOW what I do not KNOW. I do not KNOW if there are any gods...and I suspect you do not either.

So I disagree with whatever you are saying here, even though I am not sure what you are saying.

And go to great lengths to prove themselves correct.

I have no idea of what that means.

I am not inclined to argue about it. Carry on.

I intend to.

Thanks you for whatever contribution you made here.