Science Is in the Details

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Obama delivers another slap in the face to common sense with his NIH appointment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/opinion/27harris.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Science Is in the Details

By SAM HARRIS
Published: July 26, 2009

PRESIDENT OBAMA has nominated Francis Collins to be the next director of the National Institutes of Health. It would seem a brilliant choice. Dr. Collins’s credentials are impeccable: he is a physical chemist, a medical geneticist and the former head of the Human Genome Project. He is also, by his own account, living proof that there is no conflict between science and religion. In 2006, he published “The Language of God,” in which he claimed to demonstrate “a consistent and profoundly satisfying harmony” between 21st-century science and evangelical Christianity.


Dr. Collins is regularly praised by secular scientists for what he is not: he is not a “young earth creationist,” nor is he a proponent of “intelligent design.” Given the state of the evidence for evolution, these are both very good things for a scientist not to be.

But as director of the institutes, Dr. Collins will have more responsibility for biomedical and health-related research than any person on earth, controlling an annual budget of more than $30 billion. He will also be one of the foremost representatives of science in the United States. For this reason, it is important that we understand Dr. Collins and his faith as they relate to scientific inquiry.

What follows are a series of slides, presented in order, from a lecture on science and belief that Dr. Collins gave at the University of California, Berkeley, in 2008:

Slide 1: “Almighty God, who is not limited in space or time, created a universe 13.7 billion years ago with its parameters precisely tuned to allow the development of complexity over long periods of time.”

Slide 2: “God’s plan included the mechanism of evolution to create the marvelous diversity of living things on our planet. Most especially, that creative plan included human beings.”

Slide 3: “After evolution had prepared a sufficiently advanced ‘house’ (the human brain), God gifted humanity with the knowledge of good and evil (the moral law), with free will, and with an immortal soul.”

Slide 4: “We humans used our free will to break the moral law, leading to our estrangement from God. For Christians, Jesus is the solution to that estrangement.”

Slide 5: “If the moral law is just a side effect of evolution, then there is no such thing as good or evil. It’s all an illusion. We’ve been hoodwinked. Are any of us, especially the strong atheists, really prepared to live our lives within that worldview?”

Why should Dr. Collins’s beliefs be of concern?

There is an epidemic of scientific ignorance in the United States. This isn’t surprising, as very few scientific truths are self-evident, and many are counterintuitive. It is by no means obvious that empty space has structure or that we share a common ancestor with both the housefly and the banana. It can be difficult to think like a scientist. But few things make thinking like a scientist more difficult than religion.

Dr. Collins has written that science makes belief in God “intensely plausible” — the Big Bang, the fine-tuning of nature’s constants, the emergence of complex life, the effectiveness of mathematics, all suggest the existence of a “loving, logical and consistent” God.

But when challenged with alternative accounts of these phenomena — or with evidence that suggests that God might be unloving, illogical, inconsistent or, indeed, absent — Dr. Collins will say that God stands outside of Nature, and thus science cannot address the question of his existence at all.

Similarly, Dr. Collins insists that our moral intuitions attest to God’s existence, to his perfectly moral character and to his desire to have fellowship with every member of our species. But when our moral intuitions recoil at the casual destruction of innocents by, say, a tidal wave or earthquake, Dr. Collins assures us that our time-bound notions of good and evil can’t be trusted and that God’s will is a mystery.

Most scientists who study the human mind are convinced that minds are the products of brains, and brains are the products of evolution. Dr. Collins takes a different approach: he insists that at some moment in the development of our species God inserted crucial components — including an immortal soul, free will, the moral law, spiritual hunger, genuine altruism, etc.

As someone who believes that our understanding of human nature can be derived from neuroscience, psychology, cognitive science and behavioral economics, among others, I am troubled by Dr. Collins’s line of thinking. I also believe it would seriously undercut fields like neuroscience and our growing understanding of the human mind. If we must look to religion to explain our moral sense, what should we make of the deficits of moral reasoning associated with conditions like frontal lobe syndrome and psychopathy? Are these disorders best addressed by theology?

Dr. Collins has written that “science offers no answers to the most pressing questions of human existence” and that “the claims of atheistic materialism must be steadfastly resisted.”

One can only hope that these convictions will not affect his judgment at the institutes of health. After all, understanding human well-being at the level of the brain might very well offer some “answers to the most pressing questions of human existence” — questions like, Why do we suffer? Or, indeed, is it possible to love one’s neighbor as oneself? And wouldn’t any effort to explain human nature without reference to a soul, and to explain morality without reference to God, necessarily constitute “atheistic materialism”?

Francis Collins is an accomplished scientist and a man who is sincere in his beliefs. And that is precisely what makes me so uncomfortable about his nomination. Must we really entrust the future of biomedical research in the United States to a man who sincerely believes that a scientific understanding of human nature is impossible?
 
I actually have a lot of respect for Dr. Collins. There was a great NPR interview with him and I see no conflicts between his belief in god and his science. None.

Is it your opinion that only atheists should be appointed to heads of national agencies?

Tard.
 
I actually have a lot of respect for Dr. Collins. There was a great NPR interview with him and I see no conflicts between his belief in god and his science. None.

Is it your opinion that only atheists should be appointed to heads of national agencies?

Tard.

... heads of national science agencies, yes.
 
I actually have a lot of respect for Dr. Collins. There was a great NPR interview with him and I see no conflicts between his belief in god and his science. None.

Is it your opinion that only atheists should be appointed to heads of national agencies?

Tard.

His beliefs present a conflict of interests with numerous important health research goals. Should he remain an important scientist and advisor? Yes. Should he be put in a position with such broad power? No.
 
His beliefs present a conflict of interests with numerous important health research goals. Should he remain an important scientist and advisor? Yes. Should he be put in a position with such broad power? No.

According to an 11 year old fire muff.
 
According to an 11 year old fire muff.

That's a 20 year old fire muff, thankyou very much. STUDYING TO BE A PHYSICIST! Don't care if that really doesn't mean shit.

Seriously, I am sure this man is very respectable, and will try his darndest to keep his personal beliefs out of his decisions of what projects to fund. But he will definitely be subconsciously influenced by it, and it would be a tragedy if important areas of science were funded below their merit because the NIH director ultimately believes the human mind to be unknowable. I am sure there were better choices out there; this was evangelical affirmative action.
 
And a -- well, never mind how old -- neuroscientist.

Well, I can't be busting your chops. You're older than me and a lady.

Anyhow, I think that it opens up a gross slippery slope if we start to qualify people's personal religious beliefs against their real qualifications as a scientist.

To suggest that the only truly qualified scientists are atheists to me is a form of discrimination.

I am not a subscriber to any organized religion, but I am spiritual and I do believe there is a certain non-understood unity to the universe and that there is a "god" (not an individual, but and over reaching beauty and intrinsic order). I also subscribe to the sciences wholly. I find that science and religion, or any other belief system are not inherently mutually exclusive, although there are those that think so, and I think those people should stick yo their mythology.

That being said, DR. Collins is very in tune with science, and does not preclude anything as far as I can see, due to his religious system.

This smells an awful lot like "HE'S A GOD GUY, THUS HE'S WANTS TO MAKE EVERYONE INTO AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN OR WISH THEM DEATH!!1"

He's actually the kind of Christian that I wish there were more of. Why crucify him?
 
That's a 20 year old fire muff, thankyou very much. STUDYING TO BE A PHYSICIST! Don't care if that really doesn't mean shit.

Seriously, I am sure this man is very respectable, and will try his darndest to keep his personal beliefs out of his decisions of what projects to fund. But he will definitely be subconsciously influenced by it, and it would be a tragedy if important areas of science were funded below their merit because the NIH director ultimately believes the human mind to be unknowable. I am sure there were better choices out there; this was evangelical affirmative action.

I really hope you do become a physicist. It is the most natural and fascinating of the sciences. Its goddamned mind blowing once you get into the micro and macro. But balls falling off of tables is so Newtonian.
 
...because the NIH director ultimately believes the human mind to be unknowable.

WTF is that even supposed to mean, you moron?

The man believes in God, as do 95% of the humans on this planet, in some form! It is YOU who is in the vast minority with your claimed beliefs in nothingness. For the record, you believe in something just like all the rest, you just CLAIM you don't.

There is nothing "anti-science" about belief in God! There is nothing "anti-God" about belief in science! It is entirely possible and plausible to believe in BOTH, as Dr. Collins demonstrates. Why you presume that a scientist can't believe in God, is beyond me... I totally don't understand that mindset. It apparently comes from the fact that you worship science and science is your God! You believe science to be omnipotent and infallible, but it has proven itself flawed numerous times through history, and will likely continue to be flawed, just as mankind is flawed.
 
I really hope you do become a physicist. It is the most natural and fascinating of the sciences. Its goddamned mind blowing once you get into the micro and macro. But balls falling off of tables is so Newtonian.

Everyone knows macrophysics doesn't exist, only microphysics.
 
WTF is that even supposed to mean, you moron?

The man believes in God, as do 95% of the humans on this planet, in some form! It is YOU who is in the vast minority with your claimed beliefs in nothingness. For the record, you believe in something just like all the rest, you just CLAIM you don't.

There is nothing "anti-science" about belief in God! There is nothing "anti-God" about belief in science! It is entirely possible and plausible to believe in BOTH, as Dr. Collins demonstrates. Why you presume that a scientist can't believe in God, is beyond me... I totally don't understand that mindset. It apparently comes from the fact that you worship science and science is your God! You believe science to be omnipotent and infallible, but it has proven itself flawed numerous times through history, and will likely continue to be flawed, just as mankind is flawed.

I do not believe science to be omnipotent and infallible. The strength of science over outmoded theories of knowledge like religion is that it never believes itself to be infallible and always is subject to change. The fact that science has been wrong numerously is not a fault of science; science has always revised it's beliefs when the new evidence came in. They were often suppressed in this effort by religious tyrants who believed something to be unknowable because, as we all know, God did it, and suppressed the evidence when science proved them wrong.

I did not say that a belief in God made it impossible to be a scientist. Although atheists are obviously much, much more prevalent amongst the scientific community than the population at large, there are a lot of good Christian scientists. But the specific religious belief of this scientist, that those parts of the human mind are imparted by God and can't be studied, is at conflict with certain parts of the NIH's mission. Believing "this line of scientific inquiry is off limits because of God" is clearly bad science. The quality and benefits of the work should be the only deciding factor in which scientific discoveries are pursued.
 
I really hope you do become a physicist. It is the most natural and fascinating of the sciences. Its goddamned mind blowing once you get into the micro and macro. But balls falling off of tables is so Newtonian.

I have to solve my problem with being a complete and total retard before I can do that, though, which is somewhat of an impediment.
 
Why you presume that a scientist can't believe in God, is beyond me...

I'd just like to point out to future posters that this is a straw man argument, and my main argument really has nothing to do with this. Although I am certain that Dixie will continue to argue that this is my argument for the rest of the thread, I am hopeful that future posters will realize that it's not and remain on topic, rather than devolving this into a generic atheists and religious people fling mud at each other thread.
 
I do not believe science to be omnipotent and infallible.

Then why are you constantly articulating science theory as if it is fact? Why do you constantly insist science has made conclusions on things it hasn't? Time and time again, whether we are talking macroevolution, or intelligent design, you want to argue that science has drawn these conclusions which it simply hasn't. You want to claim facts that simply aren't fact. When challenged, you want to hide behind the 'science doesn't prove' excuse, and claim immunity to scrutiny. Yes, you believe in Science as your God, you worship science like most people worship religion. THAT is your spiritual belief, and that's okay Waterhead, everyone has a spiritual core, whether they admit it or not. Yours happens to be Science while others worship various "Gods" or "entities" of some kind.

The strength of science over outmoded theories of knowledge like religion...

Nothing about religious beliefs are outmoded. Belief in some kind of supreme entity has been around as long as mankind has been around, and it won't ever go away.

is that it never believes itself to be infallible and always is subject to change.

Religion and religious beliefs have also changed. This is precisely why Christians have an Old and New Testament.

The fact that science has been wrong numerously is not a fault of science; science has always revised it's beliefs when the new evidence came in.

So has religion, for the most part. Very few believers in God still think God is responsible for lightning. So if we can say it's not science fault for being wrong numerous times, it's also not religion's fault for being wrong numerous times.

They were often suppressed in this effort by religious tyrants who believed something to be unknowable because, as we all know, God did it, and suppressed the evidence when science proved them wrong.

And Science once maintained you should drain your blood if you were sick, that would make you better. Liberals suppress science today-- we know what causes AIDS, we know how to prevent it, yet instead of advocating abstinence, liberals refuse to accept science. I've often made the argumentative point regarding an intelligent designer, about how mankind has a profound connection to spiritual beliefs, dating back to the very beginning of civilization. This is behavioral science... animals don't exhibit behaviors for no apparent reason. If mankind has always worshiped, there must be a valid fundamental reason for it. otherwise it wouldn't exist... Atheists ignore that bit of science, because it isn't supportive of what they believe. So we see the exact same behavior being manifest by the other side, not just religious tyrants.

I did not say that a belief in God made it impossible to be a scientist. Although atheists are obviously much, much more prevalent amongst the scientific community than the population at large, there are a lot of good Christian scientists. But the specific religious belief of this scientist, that those parts of the human mind are imparted by God and can't be studied, is at conflict with certain parts of the NIH's mission. Believing "this line of scientific inquiry is off limits because of God" is clearly bad science. The quality and benefits of the work should be the only deciding factor in which scientific discoveries are pursued.

I still don't know what you are talking about, and I know of no one who holds a belief in God who thinks ANYTHING is "unknowable" about the human mind, or anything else for that matter. Indeed, there are things about the human mind that we don't know, and perhaps will never know. There are things about the universe that we can't explain with science OR religion, because they defy logic as we understand logic. This is a point I often try to make with people who seem to think Science answers all. It doesn't, and probably never will. There is FAR more that we DON'T know, than we DO!
 
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