Science Is in the Details

Actually that was humoral medicine, which was ancient and had little to do with science. It was sort of like western acupuncture.

No, in the day it was practiced, it was cutting edge science and medicine. But the point I was making, you've already conceded! You said yourself, science has sometimes been totally wrong, and it changed and adapted. This should indicate that what we currently view as scientifically sound, may not be as sound as we presume, it may be flawed, it may be completely wrong, we simply don't know what we don't yet know. To presume science is right all the time, is foolish and shortsighted. There is always the possibility something we presume to be true, is not really true at all. We can close our minds to possibility and believe it's true, and that is precisely what you often do. Most of my 'science' arguments are rooted in that very point, we simply don't KNOW things for a fact, when it comes to science. It IS fallible, and has often proven to be wrong.

Oh.... but that is questioning the divinity of your religious beliefs, isn't it?
 
Stopped reading.

That's because you are closed minded. You see what you want to see and close your mind to what you don't want to see. I try to maintain an open mind about things. It helps in fostering a healthy perspective and outlook. Whether you acknowledge the truth or not, doesn't make it any less true.
 
No, in the day it was practiced, it was cutting edge science and medicine.

Link?

It may have been medicine, but it was not science. It was based off of the four humors idea, which was thousands of years old and significantly predated science. Early scientists may have adopted it as a starting point, but they soon abandoned it when they found newer techniques. Just as most early biologists believed in god until evolution came about.
 
This should indicate that what we currently view as scientifically sound, may not be as sound as we presume, it may be flawed, it may be completely wrong, we simply don't know what we don't yet know.

And it will probably be something we don't know yet. It definitely won't be one of the anti-science "alternatives" you are pretending we know right now.
 
To presume science is right all the time

strawman2.jpg


No one even mentioned this argument until you just recently invented it.

The current body of scientific knowledge /= science. To presume that the current body of scientific knowledge is going to stay the same and never be changed would, of course, be unscientific, and that's why no scientist or serious scientific enthusiast has ever made that claim.
 
And it will probably be something we don't know yet. It definitely won't be one of the anti-science "alternatives" you are pretending we know right now.

I have never suggested anything "anti-science" and you obviously presume that a belief in God is such a thing. Dr. Collins should be all the evidence needed to completely debunk that charge.

Let me ask you a scientific question... Can you scientifically explain the origin and source of the solar winds? Space is a vacuum, there is no air pressure. Here on Earth, we can determine what causes wind, but how does it occur in the vacuum of space, what causes it, where does it come from? Do you know for certain? Does science have an explanation for this? Clearly it does exist, we've recorded it. So tell me, where does it come from, what causes it, what is the source of origin?

Repeatedly, in this very thread, you have confirmed my points. Science doesn't have all the answers, science is wholly inadequate at explaining our universe and how it functions. This understood, we must conclude that virtually anything is possible, and nothing is impossible. That would include the existence of some supreme entity, intelligent designer, or creator. Science can't disprove that, no matter how much you wish it could.
 
I'd just like to point out to future posters that this is a straw man argument, and my main argument really has nothing to do with this. Although I am certain that Dixie will continue to argue that this is my argument for the rest of the thread, I am hopeful that future posters will realize that it's not and remain on topic, rather than devolving this into a generic atheists and religious people fling mud at each other thread.

any question you don't want to deal with is a "strawman".....
 
Let me ask you a scientific question... Can you scientifically explain the origin and source of the solar winds? Space is a vacuum, there is no air pressure. Here on Earth, we can determine what causes wind, but how does it occur in the vacuum of space, what causes it, where does it come from? Do you know for certain? Does science have an explanation for this? Clearly it does exist, we've recorded it. So tell me, where does it come from, what causes it, what is the source of origin?

Dixie, the solar wind is nothing like an Earth wind. The "wind" part of the name is just a fanciful comparison. Obviously it travels through a void; it's just plasma being ejected from the sun. It doesn't need to travel through a non-vacuum.

Could you ask me less boneheaded questions in the future? Thankyou.
 
Repeatedly, in this very thread, you have confirmed my points.

I repeatedly confirmed a point you were trying to make, and I never argued with it at all.

Science doesn't have all the answers,

True.

science is wholly inadequate at explaining our universe and how it functions.

No it isn't.

This understood, we must conclude that virtually anything is possible, and nothing is impossible. That would include the existence of some supreme entity, intelligent designer, or creator. Science can't disprove that, no matter how much you wish it could.

I'm sorry, but "science doesn't have all the answers therefore GOD!" is not a good argument for your point at all. Of course science doesn't have all the answers. People have a tendency to fill in the blank spots (and some already filled spots) with God - this is called the God of the gaps. It's not good science though. If you wanted to present your scientific theory that "God did it", obviously you wouldn't get very far. The God did it hypothesis would get practically no support. Obviously, the God did it hypothesis not only is in a "different realm" from science, it completely fails all basic scientific tests.
 
I could just as easily say "Science doesn't have all the answers THEREFORE PIXIE DUST!" or an infinite number of alternatives that should be taken equally as seriously. The truly awful thing about allowing this terrible logic, however, would be that it would shut off avenues towards legitimate, evidence based logic. That's why such conclusions are both outside of and fail the scientific method.

Why is God the only guy that gets such special treatment with this kind of logic?
 
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Obama delivers another slap in the face to common sense with his NIH appointment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/opinion/27harris.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Science Is in the Details

By SAM HARRIS
Published: July 26, 2009

PRESIDENT OBAMA has nominated Francis Collins to be the next director of the National Institutes of Health. It would seem a brilliant choice. Dr. Collins’s credentials are impeccable: he is a physical chemist, a medical geneticist and the former head of the Human Genome Project. He is also, by his own account, living proof that there is no conflict between science and religion. In 2006, he published “The Language of God,” in which he claimed to demonstrate “a consistent and profoundly satisfying harmony” between 21st-century science and evangelical Christianity.


Dr. Collins is regularly praised by secular scientists for what he is not: he is not a “young earth creationist,” nor is he a proponent of “intelligent design.” Given the state of the evidence for evolution, these are both very good things for a scientist not to be.

But as director of the institutes, Dr. Collins will have more responsibility for biomedical and health-related research than any person on earth, controlling an annual budget of more than $30 billion. He will also be one of the foremost representatives of science in the United States. For this reason, it is important that we understand Dr. Collins and his faith as they relate to scientific inquiry.

What follows are a series of slides, presented in order, from a lecture on science and belief that Dr. Collins gave at the University of California, Berkeley, in 2008:

Slide 1: “Almighty God, who is not limited in space or time, created a universe 13.7 billion years ago with its parameters precisely tuned to allow the development of complexity over long periods of time.”

Slide 2: “God’s plan included the mechanism of evolution to create the marvelous diversity of living things on our planet. Most especially, that creative plan included human beings.”

Slide 3: “After evolution had prepared a sufficiently advanced ‘house’ (the human brain), God gifted humanity with the knowledge of good and evil (the moral law), with free will, and with an immortal soul.”

Slide 4: “We humans used our free will to break the moral law, leading to our estrangement from God. For Christians, Jesus is the solution to that estrangement.”

Slide 5: “If the moral law is just a side effect of evolution, then there is no such thing as good or evil. It’s all an illusion. We’ve been hoodwinked. Are any of us, especially the strong atheists, really prepared to live our lives within that worldview?”

Why should Dr. Collins’s beliefs be of concern?

There is an epidemic of scientific ignorance in the United States. This isn’t surprising, as very few scientific truths are self-evident, and many are counterintuitive. It is by no means obvious that empty space has structure or that we share a common ancestor with both the housefly and the banana. It can be difficult to think like a scientist. But few things make thinking like a scientist more difficult than religion.

Dr. Collins has written that science makes belief in God “intensely plausible” — the Big Bang, the fine-tuning of nature’s constants, the emergence of complex life, the effectiveness of mathematics, all suggest the existence of a “loving, logical and consistent” God.

But when challenged with alternative accounts of these phenomena — or with evidence that suggests that God might be unloving, illogical, inconsistent or, indeed, absent — Dr. Collins will say that God stands outside of Nature, and thus science cannot address the question of his existence at all.

Similarly, Dr. Collins insists that our moral intuitions attest to God’s existence, to his perfectly moral character and to his desire to have fellowship with every member of our species. But when our moral intuitions recoil at the casual destruction of innocents by, say, a tidal wave or earthquake, Dr. Collins assures us that our time-bound notions of good and evil can’t be trusted and that God’s will is a mystery.

Most scientists who study the human mind are convinced that minds are the products of brains, and brains are the products of evolution. Dr. Collins takes a different approach: he insists that at some moment in the development of our species God inserted crucial components — including an immortal soul, free will, the moral law, spiritual hunger, genuine altruism, etc.

As someone who believes that our understanding of human nature can be derived from neuroscience, psychology, cognitive science and behavioral economics, among others, I am troubled by Dr. Collins’s line of thinking. I also believe it would seriously undercut fields like neuroscience and our growing understanding of the human mind. If we must look to religion to explain our moral sense, what should we make of the deficits of moral reasoning associated with conditions like frontal lobe syndrome and psychopathy? Are these disorders best addressed by theology?

Dr. Collins has written that “science offers no answers to the most pressing questions of human existence” and that “the claims of atheistic materialism must be steadfastly resisted.”

One can only hope that these convictions will not affect his judgment at the institutes of health. After all, understanding human well-being at the level of the brain might very well offer some “answers to the most pressing questions of human existence” — questions like, Why do we suffer? Or, indeed, is it possible to love one’s neighbor as oneself? And wouldn’t any effort to explain human nature without reference to a soul, and to explain morality without reference to God, necessarily constitute “atheistic materialism”?

Francis Collins is an accomplished scientist and a man who is sincere in his beliefs. And that is precisely what makes me so uncomfortable about his nomination. Must we really entrust the future of biomedical research in the United States to a man who sincerely believes that a scientific understanding of human nature is impossible?
The author is a nitwit. He's implying that a person cannot distinguish between scientific observations and philosophical and/or religious beliefs. His point of view is just as asinine and false as evengelicals that posit the false paradigm that the belief in science and scientific principle are mutually exclusive with a belief in Christianity.
 
The author is a nitwit. He's implying that a person cannot distinguish between scientific observations and philosophical and/or religious beliefs. His point of view is just as asinine and false as evengelicals that posit the false paradigm that the belief in science and scientific principle are mutually exclusive with a belief in Christianity.

For one thing, you misrepresented his views and created a false equivalence between him and evangelicals for no other reason than to pimp your status as a pseudo-moderate. For another, *sigh*....
 
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