Rough Libertarian Critique of Conservatives

[Billy the Great Khan]

I agree, Libertarians have made gains inside the Republican party. If they would tone down their "government is the problem' rhetoric, which many interpret as a self fullfiling prophecy for incompetent government, I think they would do even better. Particularly with moderates and independents.

Well Mott, when a building is on fire, you don't ignore the fire. Fire is the problem in that instance. Doesn't mean fire itself is bad.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Unfortunately a lot of truth in what is stated here.


Reason.com Editor Nick Gillespie writes: "...it's fascinating to me that the conservative movement can't recognize some elemental facts. First and foremost that the world they're trying to create, especially when it comes to intolerance of alternative lifestyles, is never going to happen. And that by insisting, as Sen. James DeMint and Rep. Jim Jordan have, that you can't be a fiscal conservative without being a social conservative, you're alienating all those independents who just might give the GOP a second chance at running the federal budget...the fiscal con wing was exposed as just that, a total con job. Under Bush and a supposedly conservative Congress, federal outlays jacked up about 60 percent in real terms. Second, defense cons blew it. They had two wars to show themselves as effective, and they screwed the pooch, wagged the dog...whatever. After a good, long ride at the top, they did nothing well. They didn't create a coherent foreign policy that suggests when the U.S. might intervene and when it shouldn't (the Global War on Terrorism is not simply vague, it provides no stopping point for Wilsonian interventionism, which is decidedly not conservative). And third, social cons have lost, period. Gays are not going back in the closet and demands for equal standing under the law are logically coherent from a conservative POV. Gays didn't destroy marriage or the family (neither of which is in ruins, by the way, but that's another issue)."


http://reason.org/news/show/reason-alert-annual-privatization-r

I agree with Gillespie. It is beyond the pale that some fiscal conservatives pretend that and social conservatism must go hand in hand, that you can't have one without the other. That said, in DC there is no such thing as a fiscal conservative.... in either party.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I agree, Libertarians have made gains inside the Republican party. If they would tone down their "government is the problem' rhetoric, which many interpret as a self fullfiling prophecy for incompetent government, I think they would do even better. Particularly with moderates and independents.

Wrong.... it is comments like the above that out you. You are no fiscal conservative. You aren't even close. The government IS the problem. That doesn't mean ALL government is bad... but DC is a complete cluster fuck right now. FUBAR.

You can maintain social programs, public works, education, defense etc... but not ONE of them is run efficiently. NOT ONE. The tax code is a complete mess. Bureaucracy where it isn't needed and deregulation where regulations ARE needed. Very little coming from DC is working. Yet you whine about people saying 'the Government is the problem'.

 

[NOVA]

I wish I could give about 50 rep points for posting this. Gillespie has flat out nailed it. He has described perfectly how the republican party has proactively alienated people like me.

Gillespie has nailed nothing....In his second sentence, he mis-states the most important elementary fact.......that no one is trying to create a new world, other than the liberal socialist. Conservatives would rather preserve only the country we have the good fortune to be citizens of.........there are folks with conservative values that recognize that this country was created on a foundation of freedom, personal responsibility and conservative moral values.
Those "conservatives" wish to retain those fundamental values and are fighting against those that wish to change those values....

Listening to the pinheads would have us believe that the Pilgrims came to these shores so they could butt fuck goats and sheep, fornicate with the Indians and have men marry each other....that just ain't the case....

If those conservatives alienate the pinheads that wish to change this country into something other than what it was created as, so be it.....the clows that invent labels like alternative lifestyle is fooling about as many people that fell for labels like Sanitation Engineer and Waste Management Professional......

 

[Canceled2]

Obama only has 34% of independents. The idea that those that have turned on him are identified as "fiscal conservatives" is nowhere in evidence. Independent voters are ideologically all over the map-.

Independents, according to Pew, are a mishmash of Libertarians (economically conservative and socially liberal), Disaffecteds (cynical and cash-strapped), and Post-Moderns (young and socially liberal). While a "growing number of Americans are choosing not to identify with either political party," Pew says, these people shouldn't be mistaken as moderate. "Many of these independents hold extremely strong ideological positions," the report notes, "but they combine these views in ways that defy liberal or conservative orthodoxy."

link

 

[SmarterthanYou]

I agree, Libertarians have made gains inside the Republican party. If they would tone down their "government is the problem' rhetoric, which many interpret as a self fullfiling prophecy for incompetent government, I think they would do even better. Particularly with moderates and independents.

Mott, i know that you're quite beholden to government monopolies, but if even you can't see that our government is not only incompetent, but near criminal, then there's no hope for this country at all but for the razing.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Gillespie has nailed nothing....In his second sentence, he mis-states the most important elementary fact.......that no one is trying to create a new world, other than the liberal socialist. Conservatives would rather preserve only the country we have the good fortune to be citizens of.........there are folks with conservative values that recognize that this country was created on a foundation of freedom, personal responsibility and conservative moral values.
Those "conservatives" wish to retain those fundamental values and are fighting against those that wish to change those values....

Listening to the pinheads would have us believe that the Pilgrims came to these shores so they could butt fuck goats and sheep, fornicate with the Indians and have men marry each other....that just ain't the case....

If those conservatives alienate the pinheads that wish to change this country into something other than what it was created as, so be it.....the clows that invent labels like alternative lifestyle is fooling about as many people that fell for labels like Sanitation Engineer and Waste Management Professional......

thanks for demonstrating the fact that you have NO idea what principles this country was founded on.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Gillespie has nailed nothing....In his second sentence, he mis-states the most important elementary fact.......that no one is trying to create a new world, other than the liberal socialist.

I believe that his sentence has more to do with the establishment republicans than the new crop of TEA conservatives.

Conservatives would rather preserve only the country we have the good fortune to be citizens of.........there are folks with conservative values that recognize that this country was created on a foundation of freedom, personal responsibility and conservative moral values.

then those conservatives need to get more acquainted with the history of the constitution and the why's it was created for instead of clinging to the security theater they are currently striving for.

 

[NOVA]

I believe that his sentence has more to do with the establishment republicans than the new crop of TEA conservatives.

Nevertheless.....its not a new world Conservatives are trying to create...its preservation of the "old world" as they perceive the reason for its birth...

then those conservatives need to get more acquainted with the history of the constitution and the why's it was created for instead of clinging to the security theater they are currently striving for.
foundation of freedom, personal responsibility and conservative moral values ....that is the history of the Constitution in a nutshell

I see you point.....and you certainly have a right to a different opinion and a different perspective....

 

[cawacko]

Obama only has 34% of independents. The idea that those that have turned on him are identified as "fiscal conservatives" is nowhere in evidence. Independent voters are ideologically all over the map-.

Independents, according to Pew, are a mishmash of Libertarians (economically conservative and socially liberal), Disaffecteds (cynical and cash-strapped), and Post-Moderns (young and socially liberal). While a "growing number of Americans are choosing not to identify with either political party," Pew says, these people shouldn't be mistaken as moderate. "Many of these independents hold extremely strong ideological positions," the report notes, "but they combine these views in ways that defy liberal or conservative orthodoxy."

link

You are correct Independent voters are all over the map which is why the author was pointing out that insisting one must be socially and fiscally conservative is the wrong tack to take for the Republican Party to try and gain (or retain) voters.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I agree with Gillespie. It is beyond the pale that some fiscal conservatives pretend that and social conservatism must go hand in hand, that you can't have one without the other. That said, in DC there is no such thing as a fiscal conservative.... in either party.

What's the saying about power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Mott, i know that you're quite beholden to government monopolies, but if even you can't see that our government is not only incompetent, but near criminal, then there's no hope for this country at all but for the razing.

That's part of the point I'm making. That sort of ideological bent is not how you go about builing a winning coalition.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Obama only has 34% of independents. The idea that those that have turned on him are identified as "fiscal conservatives" is nowhere in evidence. Independent voters are ideologically all over the map-.

Independents, according to Pew, are a mishmash of Libertarians (economically conservative and socially liberal), Disaffecteds (cynical and cash-strapped), and Post-Moderns (young and socially liberal). While a "growing number of Americans are choosing not to identify with either political party," Pew says, these people shouldn't be mistaken as moderate. "Many of these independents hold extremely strong ideological positions," the report notes, "but they combine these views in ways that defy liberal or conservative orthodoxy."

link

How comes this chart didn't include my typology "psuedointellectual horses asses"?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

You are correct Independent voters are all over the map which is why the author was pointing out that insisting one must be socially and fiscally conservative is the wrong tack to take for the Republican Party to try and gain (or retain) voters.

He's also stating something rather obvious. In a two party system like our that is also "winner takes all" and isn't proportional, then you must be able to make compromises in order to build a broad of enough coalition, of often disparate interest, that can win elections. How can you do that when you implement narrow litmus tests of ideological purity?

 

[SmarterthanYou]

That's part of the point I'm making. That sort of ideological bent is not how you go about builing a winning coalition.

and the point i'm making is that if winning coalitions are all about compromise, so that everyone can 'feel' like they got something, but it doesn't FIX anything, it's not really winning, is it?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

and the point i'm making is that if winning coalitions are all about compromise, so that everyone can 'feel' like they got something, but it doesn't FIX anything, it's not really winning, is it?

well yea, yea it is, cause that's the only way you get things done in politics and governance. That's just democracy in the US my friend. It's ugly and it's inneficient and often unfair but that's how it works. You have to be able to reach out to others with differences and exentuate those things which you share in common and that is what political leadership is all about. Defining what that common ground is. In that regard, ideological litmus test are an impediment.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

well yea, yea it is, cause that's the only way you get things done in politics and governance. That's just democracy in the US my friend. It's ugly and it's inneficient and often unfair but that's how it works. You have to be able to reach out to others with differences and exentuate those things which you share in common and that is what political leadership is all about. Defining what that common ground is. In that regard, ideological litmus test are an impediment.

When you say 'reaching out' you of course mean 'call your opponents terrorists' right? Isn't that the new Dem talking point?

Or is reaching out when you say 'I will not sign any short term deal'

Or is reaching out when you say 'The two parties have agreed to a plan... but I want to add $400b in tax increases'

Or is reaching out to constantly say 'dey uh drove da car in da ditch (we shall obviously ignore our own role in getting into the ditch)'

 

[Phantasmal]

When you say 'reaching out' you of course mean 'call your opponents terrorists' right? Isn't that the new Dem talking point?

Or is reaching out when you say 'I will not sign any short term deal'

Or is reaching out when you say 'The two parties have agreed to a plan... but I want to add $400b in tax increases'

Or is reaching out to constantly say 'dey uh drove da car in da ditch (we shall obviously ignore our own role in getting into the ditch)'

I think we should go back to champions and jousting. So much more honest and dignified than what takes place these days.

Democrats only wish they could be as "perfect" as their Republican counterparts, if you think either is righteous, I have beach front property for you in Girdwood!

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I think we should go back to champions and jousting. So much more honest and dignified than what takes place these days.

Democrats only wish they could be as "perfect" as their Republican counterparts, if you think either is righteous, I have beach front property for you in Girdwood!

If you read my positions, you would note that I am pissed at both parties. The post you quoted was a direct response to the ever self-righteous Mott who pretends that the ideologues are on the right and that Obama and the left have been 'reaching out'.

 

[Phantasmal]

If you read my positions, you would note that I am pissed at both parties. The post you quoted was a direct response to the ever self-righteous Mott who pretends that the ideologues are on the right and that Obama and the left have been 'reaching out'.

I know, I have joined that party of thought myself over the last couple of months. There is no light at the end of the tunnel and that scares me. We are still on opposite sides of the track, I still lean towards the left and you to the right, but at least on this we agree, it is a good day.